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hooking up all four drawbar sets to the one manual (Hammond M1)

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  • hooking up all four drawbar sets to the one manual (Hammond M1)

    I wish to connect ALL drawbars to my upper manual. I've removed to lower manual, and chopped this hammond to single manual. I too all the 74 connections on the lower manual and wired them into the top manual. Now when I switch the connector, the color coded connector, the upper manual can control either drawbar set depending on what connector is clipped it. Now my question to the community is how do I get both of those signals going at the same time, instead of having to switch between the drawbar sets (with the clip)? I hope this makes sense.

    I've taken the organ completely out of the console and re-wired the thing basically exposed so I can work on it.I have lots of long-term plans here, but just one thing at a time. Thanks for your time.









    https://soundcloud.com/johns-music--2

  • #2
    I'm not sure you understand the signal flow.
    1) Each key (3 series) has 9 key contacts which are wired to the appropriate tones.
    2) When you press a key, the tones are transferred to the manual buss bars.
    3) In a single drawbar organ, the manual buss bars are connected to the drawbars.
    4) The Drawbar buss bars are connected to the matching transformer.

    So

    Connecting the lower manual TWG wire harness to the upper manual is redundant. Not needed.
    In a console series organ (black keys) - the black keys act as a 9 X 11 matrix switch which selects the destination of the Keyboard buss bars (Note - other organs may have more buss bars than the 2/3 series.)
    In your case, what needs to be switched are the outputs of the KB buss bars. Each Drawbar set has its own input to the matching transformer. Maybe you could connect the KB buss bar outs to both DB sets and control the output in the matching transformer. Haven't tried that as it may load down the tone wheel outputs.

    If you just switch the KB buss bar outputs to each set of DB's, that would only be 9 switches. Edit: 9PDT switch

    Jim
    Last edited by Jaim; 03-03-2018, 08:10 AM.

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    • #3
      Putting things in simple terms:

      The manuals do not "control the drawbars".

      The drawbars act like "volume controls" for what comes out of the 9 individual "footage outputs" from the manual.

      So, doubling up the number of drawbars gives you no advantages - it's like having two separate volume controls for each footage instead of just the one, but there's no additional voices becoming available.
      Current organs: AV, M-3, A-100
      Current Leslies: 22H, 122, 770

      Comment


      • #4
        Gentleman, I appreciate your replies. I appreciate your kindness as I was expecting to be smacked pretty hard for being a total beginner. As far as soldering in that wiring harness, I had some instinct that it might not do anything. I was really just making assumptions. So these wires can be removed, gotten rid of from the organ? I'd like to take out whatever isn't needed.

        Anywhoo, I would like to connect both the drawbar sets to just one manual, although it still seems like I don't quite understand how to do that. When the organ was original, the lower manual and upper manual could play at the same time, and I could get a big full sound like that. And also, I've desoldered the bass pedals from the organ. But now, I want those lower bass notes to be played on the same single manual; essentially i want to get all the tones of the organ on one manual. I'm surprised this isn't a lot more common of a mod. I must have spent 2 days searching this topic up, hours and hours, and found basically no information on the matter.

        Originally posted by Jaim View Post
        In your case, what needs to be switched are the outputs of the KB buss bars. Each Drawbar set has its own input to the matching transformer. Maybe you could connect the KB buss bar outs to both DB sets and control the output in the matching transformer. Haven't tried that as it may load down the tone wheel outputs.

        If you just switch the KB buss bar outputs to each set of DB's, that would only be 9 switches. Edit: 9PDT switch
        Thanks, I feel like this is a start, but I'm having a trouble following your wording....When you speak of "outputs of the KB buss bars" what exactly are you referring to? This organ came with the original service manual and I wasn't able to locate it. Are you referring to those multi-colored clips in the second picture? Thanks a lot. Any other information would really help clear this up for me.

        The organ sounds incredible, taken completely out of the cabinet the sound is much more in your face and less muffled-down by all the wood. Certainly has less body, but not too bad..it just sounds ridiculously awesome. The vibrato sounds almost leslie like it's insane.
        Last edited by CherryFive; 03-03-2018, 02:48 PM.
        https://soundcloud.com/johns-music--2

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        • #5
          Again, you have misunderstood how the Hammond works.

          Originally posted by CherryFive View Post
          When the organ was original, the lower manual and upper manual could play at the same time, and I could get a big full sound like that. And also, I've desoldered the bass pedals from the organ. But now, I want those lower bass notes to be played on the same single manual; essentially i want to get all the tones of the organ on one manual.
          See, your lower manual is now out of the organ - so the tones that came from that manual are no longer available for you to route anywhere.

          All the individual frequencies are generated in the tone generator. Then they go from there up to the manuals, where they are combined into separate "notes" in the stacks of key contacts. Everything after the manuals is just volume controls and amplifiers. If a manual is gone - so are the notes that used to be produced in said manual.

          There is no way to output anything else from your remaining manual, than the 9 harmonics corresponding to the 9 upper manual drawbars; because there is nothing else in the manual to amplify. And there is no room for extra contacts in the manual either, so you can't route more frequencies thru them (like for instance the bass frequencies).
          Current organs: AV, M-3, A-100
          Current Leslies: 22H, 122, 770

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by enor View Post
            so the tones that came from that manual are no longer available for you to route anywhere.
            I'm finding different results from that. I'm finding that if I switch the connector clip, the tones that were previously on the lower manual are absolutely available to the upper manual (still - since removing the lower manual).
            https://soundcloud.com/johns-music--2

            Comment


            • #7
              Think of it like this:

              Each manual is a synth, producing its own output.
              Each set of drawbars is an input channel on your mixing desk.

              So, in the stock setup you have 2 synths, connected each to its own channel. Now you've taken one synth away, but you still have your mixing console in front of you.

              When you swap the white plugs, you are "moving the 1/4" plug from your remaining synth back and forth between channel 1 or 2 of your mixing desk".
              Current organs: AV, M-3, A-100
              Current Leslies: 22H, 122, 770

              Comment


              • #8
                Well, this seems trivial then. The tones are still there....so essentially at the VERY LEAST, I could build a switch that allows my single manual to select between "lower drawbars" and "upper drawbars". But my question now is why can't I just splice all the connector cables at the same time then? Instead of having one cable connected to the top manual, why cant I splice in the two connectors? I'm about to try it, but a voice of logic in my head is saying no it wont work...
                Thanks by the way.
                https://soundcloud.com/johns-music--2

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                • #9
                  Putting them on a switch, to let you select either set, is actually not an all bad idea. That would give you some of the flexibility of a console organ, letting you switch back and forth between two user-selectable voices. I say "some of the flexibility" because the lower manual set has only 8 drawbars, of which the top one is a mixture - so you would get different possibilities for the two sets. And, the switch gear is already there! The upper manual preset switches are 9-pin switches with an interlock so that only one can be depressed at a time. I would simply sacrifice one of the hard wired preset voices and make another "drawbar" switch there so that you can select between drawbars A, drawbars B, or hardwired preset (one less hardwired one than stock).

                  To tie them together, though, is a useless modification in my opinion, because there's no upside to it. It won't give you any more possibilities; only increased complexity as it will be much harder to maneuver "on the fly" - when you have twice as many drawbars to adjust in order to achieve the same thing. Also, since the lower manual top drawbar is wired as a mixture, you're stuck with either keeping it as a mixture (which will result in one of the uppers becoming a mixture too, and making one of the upper drawbars redundant) or you could remove the mixture wiring (meaning you'll be one voice short on the lower manual drawbar set).

                  There is ONE good thing that would come out of your suggestion to tie them together - you would be sending signal to both the "upper" and the "lower" side of the matching transformer, meaning you will effectively get a couple of more "chorus" settings on your vibrato... as you can send the same signal both to the "straight" and the "vibrato" channels in your amplifier simultaneously. But, this same advantage can be hooked up easily in another way, without the complexity and uselessness of doubling up on the drawbars.
                  Current organs: AV, M-3, A-100
                  Current Leslies: 22H, 122, 770

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Oh and by the way - you've obviously spent a lot of time soldering the lower manual harness wires to the top manual, in parallell with the top manual connections. What I'm about to say will probably sink your spirits but - you could have just snipped the harness off and soldered just one wire to each terminal.

                    What you have now is multiple ends of the same wire soldered to each terminal.
                    Current organs: AV, M-3, A-100
                    Current Leslies: 22H, 122, 770

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by enor View Post
                      There is ONE good thing that would come out of your suggestion to tie them together - you would be sending signal to both the "upper" and the "lower" side of the matching transformer, meaning you will effectively get a couple of more "chorus" settings on your vibrato... as you can send the same signal both to the "straight" and the "vibrato" channels in your amplifier simultaneously. But, this same advantage can be hooked up easily in another way, without the complexity and uselessness of doubling up on the drawbars.
                      Enor,

                      I love your help and information here! Thanks a lot. Although some of your info is a little over my head...

                      Anyhow, last night before I got a chance to see your last 2 replies, I performed the re-wire. It seemed like running both lower drawbars and upper at the same time resulted in slightly louder sound, although you cannot hear this on the video when I'm describing it. The stupid camera adds compression so this subtle difference I can definitely hear in reality doesn't come through in the video - f'ing annoying.

                      In any event, I still want to to find out how to wire the bass notes in. There has to be some way... no????? I can't believe those notes are just lost now. Can't I directly wire em in or something?




                      https://soundcloud.com/johns-music--2

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        You can't wire the bass notes to the manuals without sacrificing the same amount of "normal" notes (frequencies) because there are no redundant key contacts in the manual. So you have to free up space by ditching another frequency in order to add bass frequencies. And even then there's a couple of things:

                        1. The pedal notes are one octave of C-C. The manual starts with an F. Starting from the bottom of the manual means your bass notes would jump back an octave as you pass C.

                        2. In the M-series, the bass notes are wired differently than the rest of the pickups on the generator (the bass pickups are wired in series, while the remaining notes are wired in parallell). You would need to first rewire the tone generator; then you would likely have to re-calibrate the generator as well because output signals from the bass frequencies are MUCH louder than the rest.
                        Current organs: AV, M-3, A-100
                        Current Leslies: 22H, 122, 770

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Hi CherryFive -
                          I have read through this thread and listened to your Youtube videos. What are you trying to accomplish (sound-wise)?
                          Whatever it may be could no-doubt be enhanced by putting the speaker(s) in some sort of enclosure.
                          ...and probably the greatest improvement would be to restore the M-111 to its original condition. Just my 2¢ worth.
                          J
                          Roger Memphis
                          C-3 with O-M, 145, 122RV, 2 PR-40's, PSR-36
                          CV with HR-40, 2 B-40's

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                          • #14
                            I went out and looked at the M111 sitting in my unheated storage shed. From reading what has transpired, it appears you spliced the lower manual out (9 wire bundle with molex connector) into the upper manual cable. As you indicated, it works. In looking at the DB select switches, it also appears with all the switches up you can select upper or lower.

                            Jim

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                            • #15
                              Thanks for the super quick replies. B-)I have a very small recording studio, and the whole time I just couldn't stand the M111. The organ body itself is inside the house and is safe, but it's too big and I really hate it. The two manual thing I really hate too. My goal here is to have a single manual chop, and create an umbilical cord that connects the organ to a box that has the amp equipment in it. And then I want to build a switch inside of the chopped organ itself that allows you to either A) run it stock connected to the amp gear, or B) run it passive into a mixer.

                              I also toyed with the idea of umbilical connecting the bass tones to the bass pedals. Would be easy enough, but I really truly dislike the pedals and am seriously thinking of a way to wire in the bass tones into the organ. I'm going insane thinking that I can't wire the bass tones in. It's driving me crazy. I want to wire em in F to C, and skip the high C. I'm losing my mind here. But I have to do homework so I don't have any time right now to think about how to wire in the bass notes. Can I directly wire in the bass notes...jumper them into other pickup outs? This sucks.
                              https://soundcloud.com/johns-music--2

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