Hammond L100 - treble response

[Guest]

This is my first post here so before I ask a question I would like to say HELLO to everyone :)
I'm owner of an L102 model (1963) which work and look perfect and I'm really satisfied with the sound when I play through Leslie clone cabinet,
but the sound from internal speakers is a real drawback. Higher frequencies sound muffled like there was a blanket in front of the speakers :P
You can barely hear the difference in sound when pulling out last three drawbars.
I found that my organ has Heppner speakers (manufacture code 575....).
I read somewhere that Hammond engineers chose certain model of speakers to reduce keyklick.
Will speaker replacement would improve / boost treble?
I really don't want to do any modifications to preamp/amp stages.
I think I found proper speakers but will it help or it would be just waste of money?

I also thought about replacing all tubes. Ten of them probably sit there from the very beginning (signed HAMMOND) and one seem to be replaced.
Will new tubes give an extra punch to the signal? Or should I stay with originals until their death? :devil:

Sorry for possible errors in my english :P

Best regards,
Michał.

[KC9UDX]

Tubes almost never go bad. New tubes all but never will solve this kind of problem.

You most likely have bad condensers (capacitors) or less likely worn speakers.

Of course, you'll probably hear other advise that you should just replace all tubes. In that case I'll happily pay postage for you to send me the old ones.

[Brendon Wright]

I'd agree with KC... first place to look would be caps.
If the electrolytic capacitors are original they're due for replacement, especially the cans on the power supply.
in the audio path the drift in capacitor values would start to filter out the highs.

The tone generator filter caps should be okay though, the L100's never had wax caps, did they?

[kziss]

Hi Brendon.

in the audio path the drift in capacitor values would start to filter out the highs.

If interstage coupling capacitors in the audio path drift up in value, this may allow more lower frequencies to pass through, but this drift up will not filter out the highs because the interstage coupling capacitors simply allow the audio signals to pass through whilst stopping the DC voltages from passing through.

However if capacitors in feedback circuits such as between the input and the output of a valve or a transistor or an opamp drift up in value, then this will filter out more of the treble or more of the treble and the midrange frequencies depending on the circuit, and if the feedback capacitor drift up is severe enough, then this can even filter out the lower frequencies.

When capacitors in resonance circuits drift up in value, this drift up lowers or alters the resonance frequency thus altering the frequency response or emphasising different frequencies than originally intended .

In the case of the pre 1964 organs with the wax capped TG notes 49 to 91, this means that their intended output levels are lowered whilst at the same time allowing unintended frequencies and undertones and crosstalk to pass through which can actually sound musically pleasant and add a warm fatness to the sound even though the TG note 49 to 91 resonance filters are no longer operating as originally intended.

The tone generator filter caps should be okay though, the L100's never had wax caps, did they?

My 1963 L-122 organ originally had the wax paper capacitors before I recapped and recalibrated it, and so did all the other Hammond console and spinet organ models built before the introduction of the red mylar capacitors some time in 1964.

All the best.
Kon.

[Wes]

It's an L102. Probably wax-cap genny. This would be exacerbated by the lack of upper foldback on spinet models.

Michael: do you understand that the highest drawbars are not connected at all to the highest keys on L100? Also, are you 100% sure about the model year?

Wes

[Brendon Wright]

Kon's info is always amazing stuff!
Thanks, Mr Z.

[Sweet Pete]

That '62? genny carcass in the parts room Wes? L102! Provided the spring for the R100 genny! The motor is in my '61 L101 now.
That '62? AO43 is now Doon's guitar amp. He has the pre's too.
Maybe Doon can give us some date codes on that L102.The cap in the expression pedal is '62.
Still have the expression pedal.

The brightest AO43 of the four here is the '69 L100P chassis/122 kit!
The dullest? The 1961 L101.
I did Kon's mods to 'brighten up' and give it some 'spit'.Pinched those disk caps outa there!

And this L100P/122(AO43) kit is getting the full once over complete with on board controls.
Volume,tone,speaker out,amp out,122,760,pilot light.
Anyone else see the AO43 in the red tool box on Youtube?
Nice little Leslie preamp,sorry you guitar guys,keeping this one!

I remember taking out the expression pedal cable from the amp in my brand new 1967 L111 in March 1968.
From there I plugged it into the input of my Sunn Solarus amp.It had way more treble and volume than the L111 speakers.
Sourcing a 1/4" to RCA in 1968 was science man!
Later that year I also obtained my first Leslie,a 21H!

The band I was in opened for Guess Who at the 'teen tent' at the Exhibition for five days in 1968.
My Hohner Pianet was brand new.Burton's was beat to death so I let him use mine.
To his credit 10 years later he let me use the Steinway when I opened for him again!
The stage manager,Marty,called me two days ago for some gigs in Victoria in May. Small world.

[Guest]

Thanks for all he replies!

It's an L102. Probably wax-cap genny. This would be exacerbated by the lack of upper foldback on spinet models.

Michael: do you understand that the highest drawbars are not connected at all to the highest keys on L100? Also, are you 100% sure about the model year?

Wes

I do understand the foldback thing!
It has these yellow caps on the TG, not red, and I'm pretty sure about the year of production.
I just wonder why the sound is that bright and sharp when I play through external speakers.
It shouldn't be a problem with the signal from the organ itself, just the limitations of the speaker then?

[Brendon Wright]

Of course!
You WERE speaking about the internal speakers all along!
Even though you said that, I was thinking about the sound of the organ through a leslie speaker.

Strangely Mr Hammond wasn't into a fully bright sound, so 12 inch speakers are standard in spinets.
Hammond's stock external amp for a C3 was a PR40 which had four whacking great cones... even the smaller "treble" speakers on those were 12 inch!!! Sparkle wasn't how Laurens pictured his organs.
A friend of mine had an L100 for a short time and I thought it was pretty polite sounding on its own, we never got to hook it to a set of leslie horns.

When I got my T500 it had a "whizzer cone" in the treble speaker, an additional cone inside the 12 inch to bring up definition. (The other 12" was for bass only)
This was curious, none of the models before the T- series did that I know of.
However, Hammond went out of their way to build filters into the T's circuitry so most of that crispness would be supressed again. (these filters were easily removed AND the speaker is now on my guitar amp to enhance fuzz tones!)

Incidentally Kon Zissis (see post above)some years ago had a bunch of modifications for the L100 sound. He was pretty happy with them but never considered them complete enough to publish, I'm not sure what they would sound like with the internal speakers, Kon might remember...

That said, I think you are probably right about the speakers.
Try hanging a high/high-mid driver with a crossover off one of the existing speakers and see what happens...
If you had to I bet you could mount it on the baffle board without disturbing the speaker cloth.

[kziss]

Incidentally Kon Zissis (see post above)some years ago had a bunch of modifications for the L100 sound. He was pretty happy with them but never considered them complete enough to publish, I'm not sure what they would sound like with the internal speakers, Kon might remember...

Hi Brendon.
My L-100 modifications did brighten up and improve the sound heard through the L-100 internal speakers compared to the original "polite" duller stock organ sound, however the best sound including the enhanced key click "spit" both on the main organ sound as well as on the percussion signals and also the switchable bass boost and treble boost effects are definitely heard at their best through the Leslie cabinet with the bass rotor and the treble horn.

All the best.
Kon.

[Wes]

Make sure you have both speakers connected, and that they are different part numbers.

The main problem with (lack of) brightness with the internal speakers is they point at your knees instead of your head. If you stood on your head and played with your toes, the organ would be much brighter.

Peter - you can date that genny by the date codes on the capacitors. There is also a stamp on the generator at the start motor that Richard knows how to decode. He's posted details here somewhere..............

Wes