Pedal Drawbars "leak" full organ into lower manual

[gaker]

I'm on the home stretch finishing a rebuild/recase of an A100. I'm incredibly happy with how the instrument sounds & plays, with the following exception. Using either (but not both) of the two pedal drawbars, I'm able to faintly hear "full organ" on the lower manual. If I pull out the other drawbar 1 stop, the "leakage" goes away.

Here's a quick video showing what I'm dealing with. Sorry, as my living room fish tank is a bit loud in the video.

https://youtu.be/E7EQt9zvtoc

In an attempt to remedy this issue, I've done the following:

* Tighten filters/screws/etc on the TWG
* Tighten everything on the preset panel
* Check/reflow TWG ground solder points as well as pedal drawbar solder points on the back of the manuals

At this point, I'm flummoxed. Can anyone help give me a shove in the right direction on what to try next?

Thanks!

-greg

[Alenhoff]

My B2 does the same thing. Years ago, I asked a tech about it. The answer I got: They all do it. Maybe others can chime in to confirm or disprove this. In any event, I don't hear it if I pull out drawbars to play on the lower manual -- so it's not really a problem.

If you listen (too) carefully to a tonewheel Hammond, you can hear all sorts of minor issues. This is essentially 1930s technology, and it wasn't perfect.

Alan

[gaker]

Thanks Alan--

The more I play it, the less it bugs me. :)

[james]

Everything on a tone wheel Hammond all comes from the one and only sound source, but the thought comes to mind that maybe some wire is touching somewhere it shouldn't be.

Hammond takes the one sound, and either adds or subtracts from it via the nine pitches offered. On the lower manual all the presets that are black colored all sound the same, but they just get louder as you start with D and come up to A. The only change in tone you can hear is a few additions of pitches plus volume on those five plus a couple of the white presets. Then you can hear the same thing on most of the black presets. on the upper manual. In short on everything you can hear the "Hammond Sound" as it was often called.

James

[enor]

On the lower manual all the presets that are black colored all sound the same, but they just get louder as you start with D and come up to A. The only change in tone you can hear is a few additions of pitches plus volume on those five plus a couple of the white presets. Then you can hear the same thing on most of the black presets. on the upper manual.

I have no clue where you got that idea, but that's certainly not the case.

The presets are voiced like so: http://www.hammondtoday.com/2016/02/...ctory-presets/

[Roger Memphis]

They all do it.

Not true; something is fouled. there are quite a few things that could cause this. Start by tightening ALL of the screws on the preset panel and checking there for stray strands of wire touching where they shouldn't. If that doesn't fix it check back with the Forum.

This is essentially 1930s technology, and it wasn't perfect.

It was amazingly perfect. So much so, that it has survived eight decades !
Cheers
Roger Memphis

[Roger Memphis]

Hi Gaker -
Something is fouled. there are quite a few things that could cause this. Start by tightening ALL of the screws on the preset panel and checking there for stray strands of wire touching where they shouldn't. Then look for stray wire strands between all of the drawbars If that doesn't fix it check back with the Forum.
Good Luck ! :)
Roger Memphis

[Alenhoff]

Roger:

Did you try to duplicate this issue on your C-3? (You certainly wouldn't notice this in normal playing, since playing the lower manual without any drawbars is not something you'd ever do.)

I've seen a number of references on various forums to this same issue. For example: https://www.organforum.com/forums/sh...n-lower-manual Maybe it's a common malfunction, but crosstalk is part of life with a tonewheel Hammond.

Alan

[Roger Memphis]

Roger:
Did you try to duplicate this issue on your C-3?
Alan

Hi Alan -
No. I have had the problem as described, caused by loose preset panel screws, but have never deliberately try to foul it. I also had some significant crosstalk of the upper manual to lower. I can't recall for sure, but seems like that was something shorted. Other than that I haven't had any other crosstalk... even when I listen closely for it.
Roger Memphis

[PGR]

Hi Gaker

My a100 does not do this as described, you have a wire touching and bleeding somewhere check very carefully around the pre set panel or behind the preset panel where the pre set key for the A could be grounding out against the upper manual that's where the bass filtering is located ...attached to the upper manual

[james]

You can look in your list with the number settings and see just how many changes were made which only added a few other tones. For example look at the E's on the top and bottom, and the only difference is the last draw bar on the upper manual E is listed as 2. I played Hammond for years, and had that chart nearly memorized, and my ear can sure hear the very few subtle tones added. They are all from ONE tonal source as mentioned. There are very few noticeable changes among those pre sets when it comes to tones. A few of the reed might be recognized, but they are made up from the flute tone so are very artificial sounding. Very few of those Hammond pre sets sound anything like an organ pipe or the tones on a good electronic organ.

James

[Alenhoff]

Hi Alan -
No. I have had the problem as described, caused by loose preset panel screws, but have never deliberately try to foul it. I also had some significant crosstalk of the upper manual to lower. I can't recall for sure, but seems like that was something shorted. Other than that I haven't had any other crosstalk... even when I listen closely for it.
Roger Memphis

Roger, I'm not understanding your response. You don't have to "deliberately try to foul" anything to see if you have this issue. Just pull out the 16 ft pedal drawbar all the way, push in the 8 ft pedal drawbar all the way. Then select either the B or Bb preset for the lower manual, push in all the lower manual drawbars and play the lower manual. You should hear nothing from the lower manual. But do you actually hear soft 888888888 sounds?

And if you do, does pulling out the 8 foot pedal drawbar slightly eliminate the "full organ" sound on the lower manual? This is what Gaker and I are experiencing.

Alan

[[email protected]]

Hello, did you figure out what was causing this ("full organ" sound) bleed over from the 16' pedal drawbar onto the lower B and Bb preset buttons? I am having this same issue. Thank you very much.

P.S. I have been playing Hammond organs for 52 years. This is not normal behavior for the Hammond. It is not wired or designed to do this. There has to be a shorted wire somewhere.

[Roger Memphis]

Alan -
You asked me if I had TRIED to duplicate this issue.
You said, "Did you try to duplicate this issue on your C-3?"

Since I only had it with loose panel screws, the only way I might see what else
could be causing it would be to experiment with some deliberate shorts, etc.
How could I be any clearer in my answer to your question? The exact situation
you're having is one that I have never experienced... only similar, as I described.
Roger Memphis

[gaker]

Thanks for all of the replies! I kind of feel that continuing to tighten screws on the preset panel is nothing more than tilting at windmills.

I kind of wonder if the issue lies in the drawbar assembly. I think I'm going to swap with another set I have to see if that makes any difference. I'll try to get to that tomorrow and will report back.

This is the last thing I need to conquer. The instrument sounds & feels so good, I just want it to be perfect :)

Thanks again!

[gaker]

About a year ago, I put the drawbars from the A100 now in the cabinet on the B-2 that was originally in this cabinet as Larry Goldings used the B-2 for a show in my town, and I wanted for him to have smooth drawbars. So I took this evening and put the original ones back on. While the full organ leakage into the lower manual is slightly quieter, is still present.

I'm kind of to the point I'd rather spend time practicing vs chasing this down but if anyone else has any good ideas on something to try, I'd appreciate it.

I might go through the preset panel yet again tomorrow and see if that does anything.

¯\(°_o)/¯