Ratchet Drawbars That Should Be Smooth?

[oblongdot]

Hello everyone,

A newbie here and proud owner of a 1964 Hammond C3 with Leslie 122 and PR40, bought this year from an eBay listing. I've wanted one of these ever since hearing the opening notes of "Child In Time" about 40 years ago! There was a bit of a delay between viewing the organ and eventually getting it delivered (long story), so much of what the previous owner told me has been forgotten.

Finally having the organ in my possession, I've noticed a couple of things but the one that most concerns me is the drawbar action. They appear to be the ratchet type although I was given to understand that, by 1964, they were all smooth type but is this correct? Another possibility is that it has been changed in its lifetime. Is there also the possibility that they need adjustment? The previous owner carried out a meticulous restoration over the course of a year or so but I don't feel comfortable asking him any questions so long after the sale.

This isn't a massive issue but I would prefer the smooth type if this is possible without major surgery as I'd like to just play the organ for a while before embarking on any work. I have a 1965 L100 whose drawbars are smooth and I like the infinite adjustment that these provide. On pulling the C3 drawbars there is a distinct "step" between each setting.

Many thanks for reading and I'm looking forward to reading your replies.

[handyczech]

Ratchet style pretty much require a good pull to move them, and have defined positions. The smooth type are not dead quiet and you can easily move them , also should have no dead spots.
Cleaning and lubing may help, but that is not a good first project for the uninitiated. If the drawbars on the L-100 have the pipe footages stamped on the front, they may be the newer all plastic type, which did pull smoother.

[tiredoldgeezer]

Believe it or not, there are people that LIKE the 'ratchet' drawbar.

I've heard of this long ago on a list far away and faintly remember a request from someone that wanted his changed to the old style. Who knows? You mighta got his old rig.

The 'smooth' drawbar offers no greater resolution so the idea exists that ratchets give a more positive feel for the switching control and the temptation to view them as faders is eliminated. In the ensuing discussion, it was found that several such persons existed.

Some guys do tend to view them as faders.

Obviously, the smooth are far more popular, of course. But there does exist that fraction of players that prefer the positive switching. I enjoyed them on my Model A. I liked the chrome look, too. Later consoles felt cheap and squishy in that respect. Never so bad that I actually changed them, but I completely understand the sentiment.

[geoelectro]

Dead space between numbers on a smooth drawbar is a broken resitive wire on that drawbar contact. It's typically replaced with a 1 ohm 1/6 watt resistor by removing the contact and soldering the resistor in place.

Geo

[enor]

On the L-100, the drawbars are continuous potentiometers, so they will give infinite adjustment. Not so on a C-3! The drawbars are in fact 9-way switches; so there will be "steps" as you pull them out - this is perfectly normal operation for any -3 series instrument, and doesn't constitute the "ratchet" type.

However, there shouldn't be _silent_ spots in between the steps in a -3 series. The steps should go straight into one another, so to speak. Otherwise - see geo's post above.

Ratchet drawbars do have silent spots in between the numbers and also a very "clicky", "position-ey" behavior as you pull them out.

I suspect the original poster has simply misunderstood what "ratchets" are, and how the C-3 normally operates.

[drg]

So, is this the same idea as a switched resistor ladder?

[enor]

No, a matching transformer with multiple primary taps, and the drawbars switch the signal between taps.

[oblongdot]

Thanks for your replies. In response, indeed my L100 has the pipe footages on them so they must be the newer type. Perhaps I did misunderstand a little what was meant exactly by ratchet type and I was expecting more of a firm "detent" in their operation. For me, the action and feel of the L100 drawbars are far superior than the C3 and I would have thought that the opposite would be the case, with the firmer action on the bigger, more expensive organ? There actually doesn't seem to be any dead space between the steps so I don't think that's an issue.

Anyway, for my playing abilities and style, this really isn't an issue, I just wondered and wanted to clear things up so, thank you for putting my mind at ease! There are some other very small, mainly aesthetic issues, but I'll post them separately.

Thanks again! I feel so privileged to finally own one of these amazing instruments which, in my humble opinion, is one of the most significant musical instruments ever made. Absolutely incredible machines.

[muckelroy]

Really, really dirty bus bars inside the drawbars, or contacts can do this. A more likely explanation is the broken resistance wire. Remove one of the drawbar contacts and inspect it for a resistance wire being present, and intact. That is much, much easier than disassembling a drawbar assembly. However there is no easy way to deep clean the drawbar assembly without disassembling it. That is a difficult task if you haven't done it before, and it is easy to reassemble it incorrectly, or to damage / bend a bus bar if you are not careful. Photos, photos photos. Those are your best friend.

Quick tip. Sorry if this is too far afield: Remove every single drawbar contact before attempting to pop the top of the drawbar assembly off. Reassemble in reverse, i.e. the drawbar contacts go on last when reassembling. They create a spring load when installed and will push up on you, making it very hard to reassemble if they are installed too early.

[kziss]

On the L-100, the drawbars are continuous potentiometers, so they will give infinite adjustment. Not so on a C-3! The drawbars are in fact 9-way switches; so there will be "steps" as you pull them out - this is perfectly normal operation for any -3 series instrument, and doesn't constitute the "ratchet" type.

Hi Enor.
Although the L-100 series organs were "economical" or "lower budget" priced organs, the L-100 ( and also the E-100 series, H-100 series), M-100, , Porta B, T-series and X-77 etc ) drawbars are not potentiometers, instead they are all normal "proper" drawbars with the metal contacts on the drawbars which slide under the drawbar assembly busbars in the normal manner as in the C3 etc drawbars.

The main electrical operational difference between the drawbars of the "classic era" organ models including the Models A, B, C, D, E, G, BA, BC, BV, CV, GV, RT, M, B2, C2, RT2, M2, B3, C3, RT3, A-100 series, D100 series, M-100 etc, and the drawbars of the "late era" organ models including the L-100 series and also the E-100, H-100, Porta B, T-series and the X-77 etc is that the wires coming off the drawbar busbars of the "classic era" organ models go directly to the nine taps of the primary winding of the drawbar matching transformer, whilst the "late era" organ model drawbars have the cheapper quality set up with the extremely low resistance value "resistance ladder" wired between the outputs of the drawbar busbars, and the output signal coming from the drawbars then goes to the primary winding of the smaller and cheaper quality drawbar matching transformer.

Apart from this difference with the drawbar output wiring, the drawbars from the "late era" organ models are similar to the drawbars of the "classic era" organ models so therefore the "late era" organ model drawbars ( including the L-100 drawbars) can be rewired to work properly with a drawbar matching transformer salvaged from a "classic era" organ.

M3 and other M-series drawbar matching transformers tend to appear on eBay, often for reasonably cheap prices.

Alternatively, the "late era" organ model drawbar matching transformer primary winding can be opened up and nine wire taps can be added to the primary winding as described in the (now absent) Frederick Somerville's L-100 modifications website.

I have modified the drawbars from my 1969 H-100 organ by removing the "resistance ladder", and I then wired up nine long wires between the ends of the drawbar busbars and the nine taps of the primary winding of a drawbar matching transformer salvaged from a 1949 B2, C2 or RT2 organ. Replacing the inferior sounding stock H-100 drawbar matching transformer with the B2/C2/RT2 drawbar transformer, and removing the stock "resistance ladder" has resulted in a better, fatter tonality as well as a louder output level.

As well as that, removing the "resistance ladder" and replacing it with the nine wires going directly to the nine primary winding taps of the B2/C2/RT2 drawbar matching transformer has removed the background "beehive" leakage noise which is a characteristic of all the "late era" organ models which have the drawbar "resistance ladder".
The extremely low resistance to ground ( less than one ohm) in the drawbar "resistance ladder" causes the audible "beehive" leakage bleedthrough through the ground

All the best.
Kon.