Misaligned tonewheel drive gear, uncoupled TWG drive/main shaft?

[Rudecamp]

Hi. I've been lurking for a year or so and learned a lot from this Forum on basic maintenance and repair on my C3 and A-102, but I'm now facing a very difficult problem with a 1959 B3 I was able to purchase a few months ago. The B3 is in great physical condition, but sat in storage for many years (perhaps ten) and the TWG was dead frozen. With help from Forum posts I was able to use a naptha flush, syringes of naptha and Hammond oil and a ton of patience to get it moving. But the bendix gear assembly near the start motor was impossible. It was completely stuck. I tried everything -- naptha, heat, gentle persuasion, needle nose pliers, you name it, for almost a month. In a moment of desperation, which I now badly regret and have had nightmares about, I used a large screwdriver and leveraged it against the locking collar at the end of the driveshaft to move the bendix gear. That worked, but it also moved the locking collar toward the outside wall of the TWG box (see pics) and, I think, somehow popped the driveshaft itself out of one of its couplings. The result is that the last two sets of tone wheels nearest the start motor (and the back cover of the organ) no longer spin because the shaft itself is no longer spinning at the end of the TWG by the start motor. Needless to say, the start motor won't start the TWG because the end of the driveshaft seems uncoupled from the rest of the main shaft. Before this happened, the TWG was running very smoothly and quietly.
I am resigning myself to the fact that I screwed up royally, and I'm thinking that the next move may be to remove the TWG to see if it can be fixed, and/or look for a replacement TWG. But before I start taking the organ apart (as far as I can tell, it has never been touched), I wondered if anyone has ever seen this problem before and has any other advice? If replacing the TWG is the only possible solution, any advice on that front? Because this is a complicated problem, I've included pictures. One of them shows the drive gear out of alignment taken from underneath after I lifted the TWG a bit. The other shows the bendix and how the locking collar has moved to sit against the side of the metal box. Please don't berate me for stupidity. I have relived the stupid moment with the screwdriver a dozen times in my head and it makes me sick!
Rudecamp (Les)

[muckelroy]

At this point, whether you can repair, or must replace the generator, it has to come out of the organ.

You might as well try to fix it. It's a ton of work, but in your situation it might be worth it.

Know that disassembling a generator requires first removing the filter/capacitor tray from the top, then removing the oiling trough. This will require careful unpacking of all the oiling threads, being sure not to break any threads (but at this point that is the least of your worries as you can very easily re-tie any broken threads before finishing.)

Then, remove the pickups from both sides. You might be able to get away with removing the pickups from just one side (either front or back), but the long screws that hold the pickup "wall" in place are really the screws that make the generator as sturdy and structurally sound as it is. Remove these screws, and suddenly the generator is "spineless" and can wobble about like a wooden toy snake.

The drive gear is not one piece, as you probably know. It is several pieces connected with brass paddle linkages. The drive shaft sections can be lifted out one at a time, once you disengage them from their paddles. Maybe you could remove just the problematic one, reinstall it where it needs to be, and be all set. I don't know. Best case, this works, you go in reverse to reassemble. You will certainly want to check that no pickups are blocking any tonewheels from turning, then measure the generator's tone levels to determine whether you need to move any magnets in or out for drastic peaks in tone levels. But if it is a 1959 with wax caps, you can't really expect a consistent level curve until you recap the generator. I'm getting ahead of myself.

Few of my own photos are attached of what it looked like while disassembling a generator from a very badly water damaged M3. I still have all these parts bagged and tagged, and have used several in other organs.

[Rudecamp]

Thanks for the reply. This is what I was afraid of. Is there a good thread on TWG removal you can point me to? I do some light electronics work on guitar amps but that much soldering is intimidating. This is an untouched wax cap Hammond so I'm thinking I should also replace caps if i'm going to go through the work of getting it out? Perhaps a crazy question, but should sourcing another TWG be considered? Much less work than fixing the original, but would that affect the value of the B3 which is otherwise very nice? I have a mint A-102 with a perfect TWG -- but it is too nice to pull apart. A 102s are sometimes relatively cheap. Buy a more beat up one and part it out?

[Sweet Pete]

Springs tie together the mainshaft 'bins'.Got all my wheels turning once the spring was installed.Can't remember how many,all I had was Bb/F and the spring gave me 91 tones!
Your disconnect seems to be the other end.I used a hemostat to finesse/connect the spring between driveshafts!
You'll repair it,lot of work but you'll feel good once done!It will spin up again,that offset can be pried back,don't blow a spring this time!
If the spring isn't broken there's a chance it's still in there somewhere floating around or lodged into the deck

[muckelroy]

I have only repaired a couple of generators this deeply, but I only recall seeing springs on the far ends, not in the middle. I've read your posts and seen photos of springs in the middle of the shaft, so perhaps this was implemented on later organs? The ones I have seen, all segments of the shaft in the middle of the generator are coupled with brass paddles. Either way, the problem here is the collar popped out, so the only practical way to put it back is to "lift" that portion of the shaft up, which requires slipping the far end piece off of the generator, among other things. I suppose with enough force, you could shove it back the other way but there is great risk of doing more damage, and if the brass paddle has fallen out of place, shoving it back won't fix anything unless you reinstall the paddle in the process.

[tpappano]

Here is a possibility, this happened on a discarded H100 generator. The far right end plate was “bowed” outward, perhaps if someone had their fingers under it and lifted the generator. It was not visibly obvious, but the plate got pulled past the end of one of the horizontal alignment bars, then when the pressure was released the hole in the plate was caught against the end of the bar, preventing the plate from returning to its proper position. This caused a slight binding of a wheel shaft that intermittently kept it from spinning. Something similar possibly happened with op's unit. In the picture of the start motor, it does not show if the lower bar is sticking through its hole. If the plate bowed outward it could've let the main shaft segment slide over far enough to disengage the coupler. If the plate is still caught against the end of the bar, that might give you the needed slack to reconnect the coupler. Then pop the alignment bar back into its hole. You might be able to do this without pulling the generator, if this is anything like what actually happened 8). If you could post a pic with a good view of the end plate, it would be helpful.

[Rudecamp]

Thanks for all of the great feedback. I'm adding a picture of the sideplate. I had not noticed before, but it does seem that the side plate is "bowed" out and the bars are not sticking through near the front of the TWG. I did not do this! Perhaps this organ had a preexisting condition!

[Sweet Pete]

Loosen off the corner fasteners of the start/run plate.Remove the music stand.....it's all in the manual.Read the procedure carefully with no preconceptions!
Once the manual through bolts are removed and the manuals are tilted up and forward(with drawbars on 0) You will gain enough slack on the loom to move forward your TWG.Now you can tilt it back and up to see!
Whereupon it is likely you will locate the spring and have a peek at the sheetmetal 'standoffs' or 'catches' to pop them back in!
A little vice would straighten that out!
My gennys remain in the organ for recapping the filters.One by one.No mistakes.Taking readings as I proceed.No 'shotgunning' and finding out I have a dud later! You'll fix it. Anything 60 years old, mechanical and electronic, IS a pre-existing condition!

[Rudecamp]

Here is another picture from under the TWG. It is a close up of one the non-turning "bins" where you can clearly see that the shaft has "popped out" in some way and the drive gear is out of alignment with the bakelight gear. I took a lot of pictures underneath but cannot find anything with a clear view of exactly what a shaft coupling looks like exactly.

[muckelroy]

I have never had a lot of luck doing generator repairs in-organ like this. It is safer and a lot less frustrating (though a lot more time consuming) to desolder and remove the generator and do all this on a bench. You might break wires, or terminals if they are pulled too tightly. I find there is very little slack in the manual wiring harness even when it is tilted up. There is also little slack in the pedal wiring harness, so you have to unsolder that before you can lift the generator more than a couple of inches.

[David Anderson]

I don't know about anyone else, but I am not getting any of the OP's photos.

[Rudecamp]

David -- here are thumbnails of the pictures. Were you able to see the pictures in my first post?

[David Anderson]

Yes, I can see the photos in your first post. Looking at one of these, it's hard to tell due to the focus, but it kind of looks to me like a bronze bearing is out of place.

[tpappano]

It does look like there must've been some sort of “event” in the organ's past. Dropped on its end, maybe? I think I'm in the “pull the generator out” camp. I say this as someone who prefers to do the least amount of work possible 8). I have a 1938 BC that had some sticky oil residue issues that I went through all kinds of contortions to fix in place, with no success. I resigned myself to disconnecting and pulling the *two* generators. Took less than two hours to get them out and on the bench. Upside was that the sticking issues cleared after multiple vigorous solvent treatments that would have been impossible to do with it in place. Also, it was very simple to replace all the capacitors and precisely adjust all the pickups. You can use this opportunity to do the same thing and be very happy with the results 8) unsoldering and resoldering all the wires is tedious and time consuming but not really difficult. Just approach with the intention of taking a full afternoon for removal and a full day to reinstall, plus whatever you do while on the bench. Maybe don't fix the bowed plate until after you fix the shaft coupler. The stuck plate probably will provide needed slack, release it when everything else is in place 8)

[Rudecamp]

Thanks again for all of the feedback everyone. Removing the generator seems to be the consensus so I will go that route and recap at the same time. I will set aside a full weekend, if not more, and go slowly. In terms of recapping, I assume is it best to purchase a kit like that offered by Tonewheel General Hospital? The organ itself seems to be in excellent condition other wise. All original, great finish, and strangely enough, it runs perfectly quietly and smoothly even with the shaft issue it has. Preamp is quiet too. I'm looking forward to making it better. I've pasted a picture of the organ below.

[Rudecamp]

Success! I removed the TWG and found that the brass linkage or "paddle" between shaft sections had broken. After getting a new (used) part supplied by forum member Muckelroy (member Jaim also volunteered to send the part), I spent the better part of two days slowly and meticulously figuring out how to position the paddle back into the space between shaft ends. I made two videos and will paste the links below. I realize there is a very limited audience for such a particular problem, but maybe I'll save another person or two some trouble.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zMr0ieEanmk&t=13s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uW6zSqKoo1Q