Why are my A100's lower manual notes not as deep as my B3's?

[Tonewheel]

Not being a technician, I am puzzled as to why my B3 sounds good when I play left handed bass all the way down to C1 (rattles my fillings), but my A100 does not. Is it because my 55 B3 has a regular, old-fashioned tone wheel and the newer A 100 has "complex" tone wheels? Enor produced a nice little video on foldback, which is terrific. But why the difference between the two consoles? Can this be remedied? I am hoping that I am poorly informed and that I just need to do something simple. Thanks.

PS: Sample from the B3 attached. No post tweaks. Might be easier to hear the bass via phones.

[tpappano]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the B3 and A100 have the same generator and foldback schemes. One thing I've observed is that aging can cause a reduction of the higher tones which gives the effect of stronger bass. My as yet un-rebuilt CV is like this, it still sounds great but the bass is very strong, causing things to fall off of shelves and move about the room 8)

[Drawbar Dave]

Recapping the preamplifier should give you more power and an improved tone. It's probably that your B3 preamp is in better condition compared with the A100 one.

[David Anderson]

As for the generators, all Hammond generators from 1947 to 1975 were the same in terms of the tonewheels.

I agree with Drawbar Dave that the difference is probably in the preamp.

[Hamman]

Hmmmm...I always heard/thought that the preamps in the A100's had some sort of low bass blocking caps or at least some different values to eliminate distorting or blowing out the internal speakers.....not sure if that was true or not.

[enor]

Not true. Only preamp difference is the wiring of the swell capacitor - it goes in reverse on an A100 amp, because the preamp is fitted upside down.

[Hamman]

Yeah enor, I never cared one way or another since I always kept a few AO28's around to rebuild and swap out in my Hammonds...maybe it had to do with what version the AO28 was.....I dunno

[David Anderson]

No, every AO-28 that came out of the factory was the same as every other AO-28 during that production run except, as enor notes, for the swell cap wiring for A100s.

That this is not the case is one of those Zombie Myths that won't die no matter how many times we think we've killed it.

[Sweet Pete]

The first thing Sal,Murph,Doyle,Schleicher(many other techs) do? Fix,or rebuild/freshen up the AO28 and proceed from there.Great advice.
B3 and A100 have the same preamp down to the component level.The yellow and green wires in the expression swell cap are reversed.

[Tonewheel]

The B3 lived in the owners' homes for its lifetime. Nasty flower pot ring on the fall board. The A 100 lived in a church. Who know what kids might have done after services. I had the B3 TWG recapped. It is hooked up to a 21H and a 147, the latter having Sovtek 6550's. The latter may be making a difference, causing cracks in the foundation and drywall. But the amps (sic) in the Leslie 205 hooked to the A100 are not shy. The bass note frequencies just do not get down. Basically, C2 sounds the same as C1.

Grateful for the informative comments. Never knew about the swell cap. So pulling the preamp and taking it in for a recap might work? Heck, why not recap everything? B-). I must say that recapping the B3 made quite a difference.

On the other hand, something seems weird about that lowest octave.

Thanks again.

[David Anderson]

There's a thing people do on here sometimes -- asking for advice while deliberately concealing crucial information. You made it sound like your A100 was the only variable even though you're playing it through a different speaker. That changes everything.

AFAIK, the Leslie 205 uses the same amp as the 610, so you have somewhere between a 16 and 19 Watt output channel driving the bass speaker. Since people often rarely replace tubes in these or do any maintenance to them, we can hope that maybe you're getting full rated output.

A 21H has (or should have) the very sensitive field-coil woofer and a conservatively rated 20 or 30 Watt amp, and the 147 has a 40W amp. How do you expect the 16-19 Watt (assuming everything is in good condition) 205 bass channel to compete with two Leslies, each of which probably has more bass output?

[Tonewheel]

David. Fair comment. I have ADHD to some degree, and there is no concealing. I had thought that 64 watts was the output, but there are 3 amps, so I hadn't realized that only 19 watts max went to the bass speaker. While the bass is not as robust on the A100/205, the point I am getting at is that the note, C2, as an example, sounds identical to C1 in tone and depth. That whole lower octave sounds like the second octave. The two organs are 180 miles apart, and I should have made a recording of that rig before leaving a few days ago. Sorry about that. I have recently bought a 22H here that I am converting to 2-speed and I'll bet that will improve the bass quality when I take it back to the A100. And I will pull the AO28 and bring it home for a tech to recap. This guy is not a Hammond tech, but is obsessive in the best ways, so there may be nothing original left when he gets done! B-) This should rectify not just the bass quality but the other issue. You guys are great at providing insights. Thanks to the 2 Daves, Enor and Pete. Keep safe. Dave

[dfcas]

I also have an A100 with anemic bass. I bought a CV and 122 from a funeral home and the CV had really strong bass. I elected to sell the CV and keep the A100 but thru the same Leslie the A100 is just not strong low. Its connected with a 6122 kit direct to the g-g terminals like a B3. The power amp and speakers on the A100 are not used

[Sweet Pete]

Once I played this BV making it into a franken organ was NOT going to happen.Easily the most bass of any here,had a 79 note ww2 era genny
that was light on bass,not this 91 wheel from '48 though.
Has smooth playing keys! Someone before me also kept it stock,adding only smooth drawbars.
If I don't need perc on a track(which is often) the BV has the most mojo.

[David Anderson]

There is no difference between the essential guts of any A100, and any B3, C3, RT3, or D100 that came off the Hammond assembly line at the same time except that the preamp is flipped upside down and has the swell capacitor wired backwards. The A100 simply has an internal amp and reverb system.

We sometimes talk about these organs as though they have been kept in some kind of magical stasis and have been immune to the passage of time. That's not how it works. Condition, which includes necessary repairs and maintenance, is paramount. You could have two organs one serial number apart that both came out of the factory in 1963, and they might not sound the same today if one has had its preamp refurbished and one hasn't.

A100s do not have an A100 sound.

[enor]

...the point I am getting at is that the note, C2, as an example, sounds identical to C1 in tone and depth. That whole lower octave sounds like the second octave.

Yes, the first octave SHOULD sound identical to the second octave on the first drawbar, although the very first octave should be a tad softer than the second. This is the case both on the B-3 and on the A-100.

Are you saying your B-3 goes "all the way down" on the first octave of the first drawbar? If so - it's not a B-3; but likely a modified model BC. Does it have percussion and chorus/vibrato like the A-100?

[Admin]

Wait!

You can't be making sound comparisons between organs connected to different speakers, whether they are in the same room or not. If you're going to evaluate this by ear, you need to switch the same tone cabinets in the same room between organs. You also must ensure that the organs you are comparing are driving the tone cabinets at the exact same signal level for both organs. Then and only then can you attach any meaning at all to what you hear.

Also keep in mind that for low frequencies, your position in the room relative the speaker matters, so even moving a foot or two between benches is going to affect what you hear. The same is true of the speaker position in the room which is why you must use the same speaker in the same room and position for both organs.

Making meaningful measurements by ear is mostly impossible due to the many variables involved. That's why god invented voltmeters.

[enor]

OR, it could be that someone fitted BC manuals to your B-3 at some point. Just listened to your left hand bass clip, and that's definitely not the voicing of a standard B-3.

[Sweet Pete]

He bought it from an organ tech.Who never divulged his mods? Unlikely, on the barren windswept plains, it's a BC manual in there,not impossible.
868000000 on manual adjust or 87 on pedal drawbars are deeper on a -3 than a V.
Not by much though.The V pedals still have more definition.
Deepest won't always translate into 'most audible' down there. 888000000 will rock,that's about it.
Compensating the expression pedal for bass foldback is acquired after thousands of hours practice.I can make it disappear.

[enor]

He's literally describing (in other words) that the A-100 has bass foldback, but the B-3 does not

[Tonewheel]

Enor, I have the photograph of the new bride and the new B3 given to her by her parents in that year! 1956. It was left in the bench when I bought it in 2013. The serial number seems to confirm 1955. She kept the organ in her living room for decades, then gave it to her daughter who also kept it in her living room for decades. This was in Dillon Montana. The daughter wanted to get rid of it for space issues, and no longer played it. It is possible that someone in the family may have had something major done along the way, but I rather doubt it. Enor, it's 848 on the lower manual, not just the first drawbar and yes the organ has original percussion and vibrato/chorus. There I go again not giving all of the details. Sorry. And Pete, Vancouver is nice, but these aren't barren, windswept plains. We are beside a river and we ARE windswept, but barren? Not so much. You can pick fruit off trees there, but I can pick wheat kernels off the stalks just a short walk way! Just need a little water to get them down....I should try 888 on the A100 because there is a kind of growl with the overtone pushed and it might fatten the sound.

A funeral home should probably have an A100 with an anemic bass.

So, thanks for hearing me out on this. Admin has a great point, but no apples to apples with a 180 mile distance between the two. David and tpappano have a valid point about one instrument that is 65 years old and another that is almost as old. If aging made the bass nicer, why complain? And an A100 sitting in a small church for years? Who knows what transpired. And Enor, I think you have hit the nail on the head. It does seem like foldback. That's what was getting to me.

These are the photos that the lady sent to me before the purchase: