Got me a free M3!

[goodcooker]

Local guy wanted it out of the house so I hired a couple guys with a liftgate truck to go get it. It's in decent shape cosmetically and has a couple issues I can hopefully take care of myself. If you guys could point me in the right direction I'd appreciate it.

Low volume - it works but the volume is very low.
Switching on Vibrato lowers the volume even more but there is output. Bad tubes?

Eventually I'll chop it (I know that doesn't save a lot of weight but it would be portable) and add a buffered output to it. Maybe do the additional foldback on the upper manual too but that seem really time consuming but doable.

Any advice?

[Sweet Pete]

Chopping an organ is never a great idea.You might think so.I bought the van first,no one will be telling me the Hammond is too big etc.
Having a Hammond without the means to move it is the main reason they get chopped.And also the main reason to warn people of their misguided intentions.
That,and of course the newbie keener factor,looking to make extra work for yourself.

Congratulations to the M3 for avoiding the landfill.Looks like your speakers and bass pedals are being amputated.....

These M3's will go up in value.It's all the chopping,a contributing factor?
"Please chop yours so mine will go up in value"
Mine is a free 1960 in average 'complete' working condition with the 1' drawbar foldback mod and the R1 MT bypass mod for
the perc volume drop on 'normal'.

I will tell you from experience the most time consuming decision you made so far is to chop the organ.
I did the foldback in a day.You are adding so many hours of 'setup/teardown' to your schedule chopping,complete waste of time IMO.
Get a van,ramp,ROK"s,save your back.Or head to Guitar Center and get a clone organ,won't be free or as good as a complete M3 though.

Most chops languish after the initial endorphins wear off.More work than an organ on dollies,that's a fact.

Your vibrato scanner is likely frozen and stopped.Needs oil and the rotor spun.You can get at the rotor with a stubby flat blade screwdriver.
The one fastener is not in plain view,a mirror and light will help you.Getting the fastener back in WAY more difficult.
Give that rotor a spin!

Congratulations.I hope you think this through.Many have gone before you over the edge and regretted it later.

[tpappano]

May not even need a van, a M3 will lay on its back in many SUVs 8)

[tiredoldgeezer]

Chopping an organ is always a GREAT idea. It's yours. Do what you want.
It has nothing to do with product value. It has nothing to do with being a newbie. It has nothing to do with anyone but you and it's no one's business but yours.
If it meets your needs unchopped, great. If it more meets your needs chopped, so much the better.

People have taken the saw to these things since the 50s. Have at it. You do what you want to your stuff.

And if anyone objects, I always extend the same offer: if you think you wanna "save" this organ, you're welcome to come here and purchase it from me. Until then, butt-out. So far, no takers.

[geoelectro]

I think the negative vibe toward chopping is two fold. First, chopping doesn't make it much lighter. Most of the weight is the internals. Second, they don't make them anymore so there is the preservation aspect.

When I was in a band, I had an L-100 and Leslie 145. I chopped the L-100 in order to break it into 2 pieces. Basically a stand and the organ. I used it that way for about a year. I came across a water damaged (insurance) H-100 for free. I built a new portable case for it. Similar to a Bill Beer version using Fender Rhodes legs which then you could still buy from Rhodes. My goal was to be able to setup my gear by myself and not rely on other bandmates. Well, it never happened. Even with the new cases, I still needed help setting up.

I just say this because there is always an expectation that the chop will be very easy to deal with compared to the original and though it will be to some extent, it's never to the extent first believed.


Both these organs ended up as parts...

Geo

[Sweet Pete]

Those keyboards guaranteed to steer eyes elsewhere! Mind you,people always slow down to look at the accident or train wreck.
Before sauntering off and quickly forgetting the chaos.

My name is Peter Sweetzir,not lurking here under a bot 'handle'.That's right George Benton,we are people!

No pictures of my two mistakes,both long gone into parts oblivion.1969 and 1973 where bad years for M and L111!
Just because we made the mistake,doesn't mean others will follow our story 'outcomes',or miss the chance to duplicate our futility.

I see an RMI pedal board there.

[tmccann]

Congrats on the M3! Foldback and Tapering are good mods. Time consuming, but not too expensive if you can get some donor parts. Alan Dubois sells kits on eBay what have the contacts and most importantly they come with very detailed instructions for disassembly, foldback, and testing. Worth the money for sure. I have bought several.

It's a little funny that some folks who are against parting out M3s and other organs are fans of foldback. The contacts have to come from organs that have been parted out. A classic chicken and egg problem?

I created these frequency guides for foldback and tapering. If you print them out and specify "actual size" on card stock, you can cut them out and they will slot right in so you easily get contacts in the right place. They are color coded by frequency. I'm attaching the M3 version, but I also have them for M100 series (different drawbar order).

One other note on foldback. Most people that do it use M series donor 16 Ohm resistance wires with contacts. If your goal in adding foldback is to get the M3 to have the same sound as a B3/C3 console organ, then that is the wrong way to do it. On a console organ, the upper foldback was added using 50 Ohm resistance wires. Most upper octave notes on consoles are at 10 and 15 Ohms resistance. The M3/M100 organs have 16 Ohm resistance wires. So what I do is cut the resistance wire, solder in an 18 Ohm 1/8 Watt resistor on the end of the wire, then solder the resistor to the contact. Gives me 34 Ohms of resistance for the foldback, which is much more like the console. I've also done it at 50 Ohms total, but it is a little softer than I would like. A little more effort, but if you want to emulate the console sound it's a better way to do it. Otherwise at full drawbars the upper octaves have way too much contribution from the notes that are folded back.

You can see the tapering details here: http://www.dairiki.org/HammondWiki/ManualTapering

Last note I would add is you should replace the power cord and add a fuse for it right away. The old cords are fire hazards and any transformer shorts will be catastrophic to the organ, and maybe the whole house.

[tiredoldgeezer]

I think the negative vibe toward chopping is two fold.

Hmm... let's examine that "negative vibe".
In the early 60s a few people chopped a few organs. It was so "negative" that hundreds upon hundreds more were chopped. No one set up nights crying their eyes out and wrote melancholy love songs about their chopped organ that was once not-chopped.
Then in the 70s and 80s, thousand upon THOUSANDS of organs were chopped - some radical, some nearly nothing.

Even then, there were those few that advocated for "original". Okay, that's fine. That's their choice. No problem. Advocate away.
By the end of the 80s, with the synths and clones coming around, only a handful of hardcore jazz players wanted a full sized Hammond to schlep around. And they already had theirs, so the market dried up.

Ironically, no one tours with a Hammond without handles. Either carved into the cabinet (chop) or on dollies. The dollies aren't permanent, but the damage caused by impact and flexure is. Original is for sitting. Chop is for moving.

they don't make them anymore so there is the preservation aspect.

Let's examine that "preservation aspect".
There is none. Zero.
No one bid for this (or any other) Hammond organ at Southeby's. Not even Barrett-Jackson. It was GIVEN AWAY. Just like they've been given away for decades. Over 20 years ago, people bragged on Hamster (or HamTech... whatever) about grabbing an organ for free. This has been going on for decades and Hammond didn't make them anymore THEN, either.
There is nothing to preserve except someone's desperate grasp at re-living their distant youth.

In fact, the only thing a chop can do is make this organ worth more. Because it can't make it worth less than zero -- again, except in the mind of nostalgic romantic.

That said, there are fans of both paths. And there's guys like me that are the fan of whatever path you choose because there are tradeoffs going down either road. I've been down both roads more than once and have been pleased every time.

What MIGHT be a good compromise is to simply fabricate a cabinet, preserving the original Hammond, and transfer the guts. Always giving yourself a road back to where you started, if that matters at all in any way to you.

Your organ; your choice. Anyone that tells you you're wrong, in whatever choice you make about your own gear, has grossly overstepped the bounds of civil discourse.

[tmccann]

Exactly...well put.

[KAsmann]

Yes!
I've done my share of schlepping over the years, I currently own 3 Hammonds;

The first is a Bill Beer B3 chop which started out as a C2, it's amplified by a Bill Beer Leslie 31A with 122 motors, JBL drivers and a solid state bi-amp with 250 watts. (lot's of schlepping with this one!)

The second is a 1956 C3 with an original Leslie 122. (this I don't schlep!)

The third and most recent acquisition is a Hammond Skx. (I love this little organ!) Plan to do some schlepping with this if we ever get back to normal after this COVID mess.

[enor]

I hate every aspect of a chopped Hammond. Hate the look, hate setting them up because suddenly you need a helper to transport and rig your gear, hate working on them because they are all different designs with different inherent problems.

No wait - there's one thing I like about them - they're dead cheap, so they make excellent parts donors. Here in Europe, people are definitely NOT giving any Hammond away, and especially not the stock ones. A chopped organ is always half the price of an untouched instrument, or less.

[Drawbar Dave]

I hate every aspect of a chopped Hammond. Hate the look, hate setting them up because suddenly you need a helper to transport and rig your gear, hate working on them because they are all different designs with different inherent problems.

No wait - there's one thing I like about them - they're dead cheap, so they make excellent parts donors. Here in Europe, people are definitely NOT giving any Hammond away, and especially not the stock ones. A chopped organ is always half the price of an untouched instrument, or less.

Yep! What he said!

[peterb_2795]

So what is the thinking if one refurbs and chops a chop?

[KAsmann]

Pete, if that's a before and after of the same organ, my hat's off to you. It looks very sharp!

[peterb_2795]

Yup, same organ but fully refurbished inside and out. Cabinet further modified as part of my refurb.

[tiredoldgeezer]

Version 1 chop was adequate. Version 2 chop is exceptional. Very nice. Very spiff. Looks "better than factory". Hope it serves your needs for many gigs to come.

[ShadyJoe]

Anyone that tells you you're wrong, in whatever choice you make about your own gear, has grossly overstepped the bounds of civil discourse.

Telling people their opinion and feelings are wrong is overstepping the bounds of civil discourse.

[tiredoldgeezer]

🤣 🤣 🤣 🤣 🤣 <--my feelings....

[Lazlo]

Well, the original poster asked for advice. And the advice he got was don't chop it (on the whole). I concur with the the 'don't chop' mantra. I bought my C3 in 1986 when all my contemporaries had DX7s and the like. They laughed at me for purchasing this leviathan so I chopped it thinking it would improve things. It didn't.

Having toured and gigged the hell out of my C3 I really regret the chop. It looks terrible and just doesn't feel that secure when left unattended (it wasn't a great chop tbh). R-o-Ks are the answer. The whole shebang of moving, loading, de-rigging, repositioning on stage, getting others/strangers to help etc is so so much easier with an unchopped organ using R-o-Ks.

[Sweet Pete]

Yes,you have lived it too.

[goodcooker]

I was looking more for advice on the low volume issue and how to get the vibrato scanner up and running again. If I decide to chop the thing that's up to me. I don't care about what other people think about what I do. I appreciate the input but if I want to cut it down to fit in the back of my CRV that's what I'm gonna do.

I'm not going to be one of those people that comes into a forum as a new user, asks for advice and then gets butt hurt when I don't get the advice I'm looking for but I certainly didn't come here looking for people to tell me what to do with the organ that I saved from the dump. Being a new user here I had no idea that the "chop" debate was such a hot button and I'm getting kind of a chuckle out of it - but it's certainly not getting me anywhere closer to getting the M3 playable again.

Thanks to those who have responded with advice about getting it playable again which is my main focus. I'm going to invest in some new tubes and see if I can get that vibrato scanner spinning again.

[tmccann]

There are definitely some folks here that can be blowhards at times and seem to love to correct any mistakes and challenge any opinions, all while never really answering your questions! But the forum is good and I have have seen great posts from lots of folks. Most importantly, the search function here will produce countless pieces of good information and debate. So don't give up on it.

Also keep in mind that some of the folks on here are professional techs and get paid $100+ an hour to fix things, yet still offer free advice to those of us do-it-yourselfers that aren't paying them anything. David Anderson, AndyG, Wes, etc., plus some of the guys in this post above really know their stuff.

Last piece of advice is that I try to post follow-ups to any questions I've had when I find a solution to a problem. Drives me crazy when people don't do that. If you figure it out, let people know what it was. That really adds to the knowledge base.

[Papus]

Forget the "morals" or the "ethical dilemma" of chopping - maybe try listening to the stories of choppers..... I'll wager the overwhelming majority regret it.

Nobody can or should tell you what to do with your own property - those that think otherwise are currently trying to subvert and destroy everything we've built as a civilsation (I'll leave that topic right there. If you know what I'm referring to, then you already know. If you are confused by my statement, then don't worry about it.)

But it would be foolish and naive to wantonly ignore the collective hundreds of years of accumulated lived experience of other regretful choppers, just so you can say "nobody tells me what to do".

[tiredoldgeezer]

You would lose your wager.

In fact, you're largely just making it up as there's no data to go on.

If chopping was so bad and regretful, it would have stopped many, many years ago. But it's been going on, and still continues, lo, these 50 years or so.

Now, yes, there are people with limited skills and indecisive natures. So there are doubtless those that wish they had not taken a chain saw to a cabinet. There are those that don't finish projects. There are even those that thought by chopping, their playing skills would equal Brian Auger's on his chop or Jon Lord's on his chop. So sure, buyer's remorse exists.

But facts are not made up.

[Sweet Pete]

Negative vibe? My name is Peter Sweetzir.I am not hiding behind a fake name..I can assure everyone that my friend Brian Auger owns no chopped Hammond.
Man up and tell us your name there lurker!! Take off the 'mask',spread around some more untruths with a name attached? One thing not made up? My name!

Free M3? Chop thread? Sounds like one to avoid,'freedom lurkers' are always a part of that scenario.
Willing to bet admin loves ANY traffic here,.might even be behind it?
Editing a reply with a fake name is still just a 'fake name'.That for sure is MADE UP! And a fact!
Never tire of calling out bots and lurkers with opinions not attached to any real name.
I have your posts blocked Wichita 'whineman',you never have anything positive to add anyway.

[tiredoldgeezer]

I know who you are.
And I don't care what you call your grizzled old pie hole. No sales contacts or money for you to make here. You're nobody, name or otherwise.
You were nobody on Hamtech, either, when you were a grizzled old pie hole back then.

I don't know what BA owned, but I know what he played when I saw him. Maybe it was just one night. It absolutely does not matter. If you believe what you say, and you don't, you would be busy restoring chopped Hammonds back to original instead of obsessing about me.

You're just once again flailing in rage because, once again, some mere mortal deigned disagree with your Mt. Olympus judgment upon us all. Throw another lightning bolt or two before you have a stroke.

M-3s are not all free, but some still are. Precious, collectible, artifact spinets. Free. That's what they're worth until someone makes them better.