In search of 230Vac 50Hz run motor

[peterb_2795]

Hi all,
I have recently been handed an M3 to refurbish. This spinet came with a missing run-motor. Here, in Australia, the market for Hammond/Leslies is very thin and finding a 'spare' run-motor is about the same as looking for hen's teeth. Are there any members out there (particularly UK, SA, EU - same voltage) that might have either a spare run-motor or a spinet that is being kept as a 'parts monster' that would be willing to sell me a run-motor?

Alternatively, can anyone advise me as to whether it is possible to re-use a 115Vac run-motor by having the coils rewound? Are there other pitfalls in this approach e.g. gearing on the drive pinion into the vib-scanner.

Any offers or advice is very much appreciated.
Cheers,
Peter

[Papus]

50Hz motors run at a different RPM than 60Hz motors... the fundamental RPM of the TWG assembly is "burned in" by the choices of ratios of cogs and gears..... I don't think you'll be able to obtain a concert-pitch organ by installing a 115V motor, even if it's powered via a proper mains frequency convertor to feed it 115V 60Hz AC.
It might work if your mains frequency convertor can feed the motor the appropriate line frequency to make it produce concert-pitch - but be aware that the motor run capacitor value is very specific for the line frequency - you would have to calculate the correct cap value to keep the motor ticking over properly

Best option is to keep looking for a 240V 50Hz motor, or obtain a 60Hz TWG and run motor.

[peterb_2795]

Thanks for your reply, I wasn't intending to place an unmodified 117Vac run-motor into the organ, the question was (given that they are plentiful in the US), are they modifiable to 230Vac 50Hz coils,? and then there would be the requirement to deal with (I guess) the tooth count on the pinion gear. Cheers, P

[kziss]

50Hz motors run at a different RPM than 60Hz motors... the fundamental RPM of the TWG assembly is "burned in" by the choices of ratios of cogs and gears..... I don't think you'll be able to obtain a concert-pitch organ by installing a 115V motor, even if it's powered via a proper mains frequency convertor to feed it 115V 60Hz AC.
It might work if your mains frequency convertor can feed the motor the appropriate line frequency to make it produce concert-pitch - but be aware that the motor run capacitor value is very specific for the line frequency - you would have to calculate the correct cap value to keep the motor ticking over properly

Best option is to keep looking for a 240V 50Hz motor, or obtain a 60Hz TWG and run motor.

Hi Papus.
The M, M2, M3 and M-100 series Run motors are identical to the Run motors on the A/B/C/D/ E/ G/RT console organs including the -3 series organs so therefore there is no Run capacitor on these Run motors.

The pinion gear cog ratio and the electrical coils are different between the 230 volts / 50Hz Run motors and the American 117 volts / 60 Hz run motors, but Peter B and I would both like to know if the rest of the internal parts such as the shaft, and the washers, and the bushings and the metal core laminations etc are identical and interchangeable between the 230 volts / 50 Hz Run motors and the 117 volts / 60 Hz Run motors.

If these parts are interchangeable, then a pinion gear removal tool could be used to remove the American 60 Hz pinion gear and then install the 50 Hz pinion gear on to the shaft salvaged from an American 60Hz Run motor so that it can work with a 230 volts / 50 Hz Run motor.

In all the years that I have been on the internet, I cannot recall ever seeing a 230 volts / 50 Hz Run motor available for sale, and even the Australian Hammond technicians have few if any spare 230 volts / 50 Hz Run motors available.

Both the 230 volts / 50Hz Run motors for the above mentioned organs and also the 230 volts / 50 Hz Howard Industries self starting motors as used on the E-100 series, the H-100 series, the R-100 series and the X-77 console organs and the L-100 series, and the T-series spinet organs are all very rare and extremely hard to find available for sale in Australia so therefore they need to be salvaged from another organ.

The 230 volts / 50 Hz Start motors are also extremely hard to find in Australia, but the Start motors look very similar to the generic motors used in other much more available appliances such as the older record turntables and some exhaust fans and in the fans in the Vulcan living room heaters etc so therefore it might be possible to use the generic motor salvaged from these appliances and to then install the rotor shaft removed from the damaged Start motor into the salvaged generic motor and then get it to work on the tonewheel generator.

In fact I have such a 234 volts / 50 Hz generic motor salvaged from an old record turntable as the Slow motor for the treble horn of my modified Leslie 147 cabinet.
Back in 1996 I installed the rotor and the spring and the washers from the burned out Leslie Slow motor into the generic motor salvaged from an old record turntable, and this has worked OK since then.
Yes that's right, I had to improvise because the 234 volts / 50 Hz Leslie motors are also extremely hard to find in Australia unless they are pulled out from an organ with a built in Leslie unit.

All the best.
Kon.

[peterb_2795]

Thanks for your input Kon, we still have better luck in finding 234Vac/50Hz Leslie motor stacks here than run-motor.s There are still internal Leslie units appearing in organs that are either give-away or low sale prices (e.g. Kawai and other brands). However, it does seem somewhat unkind to cart an organ away when all you want do is excise it's motor stack on the way to the nearest garbage tip!

Even then, we still need to deal with the slow speed motor spring depending upon whether one intends inverting or hanging the motor. The sidewinder motors are slightly different in their spring loading in my experience of them.

Cheers, P

[Grommet]

I assume that the M3 was originally fitted with a 50Hz motor. Obviously the ideal solution is to find an exact replacement. Initially I thought a 60Hz motor could be used, and fed with 50Hz, but the pole arrangement is different between the two motors, meaning a frequency changer would be required (the 50Hz motor runs at 1500 rpm and the 60Hz motor runs at 1200 rpm). This would require a drive frequency of 75Hz to be applied to a 60Hz motor to give the equivalent 50Hz speed.

I once tried to use a 60Hz M100 on a 50Hz supply. The motor would spin, but all the tone pitches and vibrato rate were shifted down by a factor of 0.833. At first sight this led me to believe that simply changing to a 50Hz motor would correct the problem, but at that time I was unaware of the different pole arrangements of the two motors. Also there is different gearing between the 50Hz and 60Hz TWGs. In the end, I had to fit a 50/60 Hz frequency changer to make the organ play correctly.

[peterb_2795]

Hi Grommet,
Yes, the M3 is an all original 230Vac/50Hz model as used in Australia. It is my understanding that the run motor was pillaged a number of years ago by a tech to put into a C-3. The faulty C-3 run-motor is of unknown whereabouts. The solution *will be* to source a correct voltage/Hz run-motor from someone, somewhere out in the Hammond community....

[geoffbrown]

The 60 Hz run motors use 4 poles in the rotor I believe the 50 Hz run motors use 6 poles so rewinding the motor would not solve the problem speed problem.
Another alternative is use a Howard Industries self starting run motor ,but this would take a bit of engineering to mount it correctly and deal with the loss of vibrato

[peterb_2795]

Hi Geoff, I have been thinking of this as an alternative as I actually do have a spare one of those motors!.. Obviously, loss of vib-scanner is not going to be an option for Ray.

Cheers,
P

[enor]

It's actually the other way around. 60Hz motors have 6 poles, 50Hz motors only 4.

[Drawbar Dave]

I was discussing replacement coils with an Australian tech who winds them himself. He was going to send me a quote to ship to the UK and then I never heard any more from him. I'll try to find the contact details today.

[peterb_2795]

Hi, Thank you for the comment. Problem is that Ii don't have a run motor as the starting point... :) You might be thinking of either GeoffW or SimonT ?

[Drawbar Dave]

Hi yes I could see that you did not have a motor. I suggested it in case you were going to try and convert a US spec motor.

[enor]

You could install a US motor and run it @ 75Hz by means of a frequency converter. Problem is, you'd still need to source a 50Hz pinion gear for the scanner drive.

[geoffbrown]

If you run a 60Hz motor at 75Hz it will also run hotter

[geoffbrown]

If you run a 60Hz motor at 75Hz it will also run hotter

[enor]

Yes, the right solution would of course be to source the proper motor.

[Hoaxel]

A selfstarting Motor of an T model could fit, in Europe Not hard to find, but shipping ist about 50€.
in2 weeks I'll meet some Guys and could ask vor parts

[enor]

But then he'd lose the vibrato scanner.

[peterb_2795]

I have actually considered that approach as I do have a spare self starting motor. Loss of the vib-scanner is not a desirable outcome (but may have to be the case in the end if unsuccessful in my quest for a correct run-motor replacement).

[Papus]

This is an interesting topic.... at some point, a lot of these old motors will become unusable due to burnouts and general ageing.
Then what do we do?
Resort to adapting modern digitally-controlled motors? - One advantage would be the possibility of theoritically dialling in virtually any motor speed for instantaneous transposition, although the TWG caps will then possibly be out of range for the new pitches.

[peterb_2795]

Would it not be the case that even if a motor burns out or (say) bushings wear out, we could refurbish and/or replace the parts. In this case, the problem starts by not having a run-motor in the first instance. For sure, as time goes by, there will be a number of 'difficult' parts that are going to need new/innovative solutions as a replacement in order to keep these instruments alive... We just seem to be on the wrong side of the 'voltage divide' to be able readily access replacement parts. .. :)

[enor]

This is a non-issue. The very first Hammonds are 85 years old now, and yes the coils may be in bad shape but those are easily replaceable. I have yet to see terminal bearing wear in a Hammond run motor and if it hasn't started to show in the first 85 years, it'll likely not be a problem in the future either.

[Hoaxel]

a solution like this?

[enor]

Doesn't really eliminate the need for a motor to be in place.