Ebay Classic organs

Collapse

Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

91 Frequency Generator vs. 86 Tone Wheel size.

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • 91 Frequency Generator vs. 86 Tone Wheel size.

    Does anyone know if the tonewheels in the B/C 3 series the same physical size as the M3's? IE could you swap a tonewheel and coil from a B/C into a M3 as a replacement part if it was the same frequency/profile?
    I found a lot of "is similar", "almost identical", ect.. but no where in my research was a definitive yes they are the same. It's become apparent Hammond saved cost wherever they could, but without a B/C TWG in front of me to measure it's beyond my deduction.

    Thanks,
    Morgan

  • #2
    You will likely find that tonewheel physical dimensions are the least of your worries. The "swap" thing is far more complex than it might appear at first blush.
    After all, it's not just the diameter and shaft diameter. It's number of teeth. But not just number tonewheel teeth - which are only about a dozen different ones - but teeth on driving and shaft gears and getting combinations, and eventually engagement depths, correct.
    Maybe what you're really asking if any given NOTE in a console TWG is the same as that corresponding note in a spinet TWG?
    Like every one else, I can say it's extremely likely to be identical but I can't confirm.
    But did it ever occur to you why, after a solid century, no one outside the long-ago factory retirees could tell you with certainty that was the case? All these experienced Hammond techs and no one could say for sure?
    Because disassembly and reassembly of a TWG is a colossal undertaking requiring lots of bench and alignment tooling. Sleds, pins, clamping, etc. I'm the most motivated surgeon around and I've never (successfully) done such a thing and tip my hat to any who have (and can prove it 😉). It's way cheaper and easier to just get another. Manuals are time-consuming themselves, but the TWG is a phenomenal number of twiddly bits all ready to collapse if you let them.
    But then, maybe that's a crazy cool niche for you to explore. Be The Guy with the bench that can rebuild a TWG. You could offer rebuild service with any kind of wheel someone wants. Round tooth. Square tooth. Alternating notch tooth. Whatever. You never know what will be The Coolest Thing Ever when it comes to Hammonds.

    Coil swap? No biggie.

    Comment


    • #3
      Thanks tiredoldgeezer Maybe I am just crazy, but I want to take it apart. I am not so interested in being a guy with a niche, more just exploring what can be done. I can't justify the cost of a B3/C3/A100 so the M3 is my fun/test bed for now.
      By day I own and operate a machine shop with my father. He worked as a tech on Olivetti, Commodore, and IBM equipment before opening the shop in the early 80's. We still have a decent electronics lab, with most of what I would need to deal with the Hammond's electrical side. I also have a good friend who has assisted/performed some large scale theater organ upgrades/restorations.

      I figured on getting bombed if I asked what I was really getting too, which was from the chart, the spinet has 5 blank tone wheels for balance on the shafts yet is missing 5 four tooth tonewheels. -info obtained from http://www.dairiki.org/HammondWiki/T...ToneGenerators Could one take that section out of a B3/C3 and install them in the missing holes?

      I'm just wondering if they could fit first. Then figure out the gear train, balance, and coils. I figured someone on this forum would have a M3 and a B/C3/A100 TWG in the corner and could put a set of calipers on the same frequency wheel on both TWG for giggles.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by MC3900 View Post
        Thanks tiredoldgeezer Maybe I am just crazy, but I want to take it apart. I am not so interested in being a guy with a niche, more just exploring what can be done. I can't justify the cost of a B3/C3/A100 so the M3 is my fun/test bed for now.
        By day I own and operate a machine shop with my father. He worked as a tech on Olivetti, Commodore, and IBM equipment before opening the shop in the early 80's. We still have a decent electronics lab, with most of what I would need to deal with the Hammond's electrical side. I also have a good friend who has assisted/performed some large scale theater organ upgrades/restorations.
        While it sounds like you might have a leg up, you might wanna get another spinet, working or not, and pull *that* TWG to work on.
        Once you start down this path, you can very easily be without an organ until this time next year, or later, by the time you work up the tooling requirements.


        Originally posted by MC3900 View Post
        I figured on getting bombed if I asked what I was really getting too, which was from the chart, the spinet has 5 blank tone wheels for balance on the shafts yet is missing 5 four tooth tonewheels. -info obtained from http://www.dairiki.org/HammondWiki/T...ToneGenerators Could one take that section out of a B3/C3 and install them in the missing holes?
        🤣🤣 You think you're the first one to consider this? No, you wouldn't get bombed.
        You might get some good-natured ribbing if you showed up something like "I took apart my TWG and can't get it back together. A little help?!" But not the path you're taking right now.

        Originally posted by MC3900 View Post
        I'm just wondering if they could fit first. Then figure out the gear train, balance, and coils. I figured someone on this forum would have a M3 and a B/C3/A100 TWG in the corner and could put a set of calipers on the same frequency wheel on both TWG for giggles.
        Calipers might yield outside diameter, but not shaft diameter (which I'm positive are all the same).
        Like you said, there's very little chance of separate tooling for these. These wheels were stamped out by the MILLIONS. I'm guessing, but they were stamped out as blanks (mostly) and stacked on a spindle, then hobbed.
        Once you dive in, you will also notice that the lowest notes on a spinet are notched wheels (there's a reason) where the lowest notes on a console are sine wave. Maybe replace those, too, while you're at it.

        Comment


        • #5
          I had thought about 1-12 swapping the "Complex Tonewheels" out for their counterparts. I am just really surprised that there isn't more documentation out there on the "hard parts". With the enduring legacy of these instruments, I really would of thought that someone would of taken a b3 apart and made CAD drawings of the tonewheels, and deciphered the wire size, number of wraps, and values for the pickup coils. In my line of work, in the last 15 years or so, I have seen a sharp shift from "Just throw it out, I can get another one" to "I can't find one can we fix it? I work on a lot of Model T Ford parts, and its surprising how many parts are getting impossible to find even though they made 15 million of them.

          This idea is more just theory crafting at the moment. The goal is to go through whats here now and make it right. Run through the amp, check all the components on the TWG, ect. I bought one of Alan's foldback kits to install, and I want to do the left-hand bass mod.

          Speaking of the blanks being hobbed, I really would be interested to know how they did that. A copy or pantograph lathe, or maybe a gear hobber. You were talking about making weird tonewheels, I know of a guy in my area with a rose engine. Those things make crazy shapes.

          Again, Thanks
          Morgan

          Comment


          • #6
            A few years ago someone gave me a severely water damaged B style Hammond. Due to corrosion, warpage and any other damage water could do, the only salvageable parts were the legs and possibly the TWG. Well, I tried to methodically take the TWG apart. It was impressive how many interlocking pieces were in it. There was no way I was getting it back together. The way it is designed, you would have to remove a bunch of stuff that was not, in my humble opinion, designed to be taken apart.

            I'd love to see you do it but I don't think it can be done. Definitely don't try it first on your only M3.

            I wonder if you could put a TWG from an old B into an M3.

            When I become dictator, those who preach intolerance will not be tolerated.

            Comment


            • #7
              [I wonder if you could put a TWG from an old B into an M3.
              I think you probably can, the tg chassis all seem to be the same size. I dropped a 96 tone H100 generator into a M100 8)
              Last edited by Admin; 07-22-2021, 06:20 AM. Reason: fixed quote tag
              Tom in Tulsa

              Fooling with: 1969 E100, 1955 M3, 1963 M100, Leslie 720

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by MC3900 View Post
                I had thought about 1-12 swapping the "Complex Tonewheels" out for their counterparts. I am just really surprised that there isn't more documentation out there on the "hard parts".
                Why would there be?
                Like I said, once you take one apart, you'll know why people leave them together.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by ShadyJoe View Post
                  I wonder if you could put a TWG from an old B into an M3.
                  To answer a question with a question, "Why would you want to?"
                  Seems to me that the console TWG is about 1.5" longer, IIRC. A console TWG could be made to fit, I'm sure, with some slight wood and metal work, but then what do have? Many might regard that as a Ferrari engine in a Chevy - or some other lame mechanical analogy.
                  Further, perhaps the worst, the wiring harness is completely different which you will need to replace and that's no mean feat. The console wiring harness won't work as those are essentially "jumpers" (on the A) and gathered jumpers on later consoles. The spinet is a wrapped and routed python that finds terminals in a very non-sequential format. To do that in a very cramped space under the spinet manuals would be an undertaking for a small organ.


                  Comment

                  Working...
                  X