Model E and me. Calling all E owners and enthusiasts.

[johnny b3]

I've never seen a console hammond before today. I dont go to church - maybe thats one reason. I never played through a real leslie until I bought my own a few months ago. Since my experience is primarily with M3 and L100's I dont pay much attention to chatter regarding consoles which don't include 3-series...</p>

Well today I laid eyes on a model E...and.. ***SENSORY OVERLOAD***. </p>

A friend of mine got it this morning - it was destined for the trash. Apparently it was owned by Lady Eaton - of the wealthy Eaton family which resided in Canada and owned the large chain of Eaton department stores.
</p>


Here's what he got; a "Northern Electric" (Canadian) brand Hammond model E. No Bench, but the wood work is in great condition. It came with a D20L tone cab, which must be close to 6 feet tall. The organ's amp model number was R4059 (only two tubes) and the tone cabinet's amp is model number R4045-C, powered by 6L6GC's and a 5U4 rectifier tube. Its got one hell of a large power transformer. Power and Speaker leads are delivered by 2 separate cables. a 2 prong for the power, and a 4-pin amphenol for the sound, my guess is two channels. The cab has 2 x 12" speakers in a V formation.
</p>


I've read that these were built between 1937 and 1942, However this organ has a single on/off switch with self-starting synchronous motors. How did they have a self starting motor in '42? I don't believe they did. Also that's motors, plural - two tone generators with two motors, each with its own cylindrical shaped capacitor. And not direct drive! the motors are off-set and connected to their respective drive shafts by rubber belts (with teeth).</p>


Apparently it started up and died right away - with a slow fading sound of the generators slowing down. The culprits are the 2 rubber belts - pretty much disintegrated. </p>

Aside from that, upon inspection I can't see anything wrong except that the wire mechanism that control the swell indicators have been cut where they enter the swell control box. Also one of the wires was cut behind one of the swell indicators. Thats about it...as far as the eye can see.
</p>

I have hooked up this same friend's M3 and 145 with a home-made kit. can the same be done to this organ? Simply intercept the power and audio leaving the organ? or is this not possible because of the console power system (B+ voltage and so on, akin to the B3/122 setup?)
</p>

My preliminary searches have yielded nothing in respects to locating spare belts and a general technical breakdown of the organ. However, I bet all you E enthusiasts wouldn't mind gushing about the technical aspects of these organs. Have at it!</p>

</p>

Why the 2 generators? What does the Chorus control do? I can see that opens and closes connections between the frequencies leaving the generator closer to the back of the organ. What is going on there? I believe these organs also have ratchet drawbars, any info as to what/why? tips? help....so overwhelming, but COOL organ!
</p>


</p>

[johnny b3]

Re: Model E and me. Calling all E owners and enthusiasts.

I just noticed the belts are not the same - one has 18 teeth while the second has 19 (However it is possible that one belt lost a tooth upon its demise). Plus, I don't know which assembly each came from...I have a sinking feeling this may be a lost cause...can the generators be hooked up as direct drive?

[Model E & Me]

Re: Model E and me. Calling all E owners and enthusiasts.



This is clearly not a pre-WW II Model E in original condition. First, be sure it is (or at least started as) a Model E . Many people have posted to this forum regarding Model E's only to have it turn out that what they are talking about are much later versions (1960's - 1970's) of models whose series started with an E, butwhose resemblance stopped there.</P>


The original E's had two manuals with numbered presets that resembled typewriter keys (I hope you are not too young to know what a manual pre-electric typewriter looked like) where the other full size consoles had reverse-colored keys. On the upper left where the Vibrato is on other models, there are two levers that look just like "Start" and "Run" switches on other models.These leverscontrolled the Tremulants - one for the upper manual, the other for the lower manual and pedal. Tremulant preceeded Vibrato on all early Hammonds.</P>


Model E's all had separate "Start" and "Run" switches with separate start and run motors on each of the two generators (main and chorus).If this one has self-start motors and belt drives, and is in fact a Model E, it has been severly modified.</P>


Just to the right of the music rack there was a "Chorus" drawbar that switched in the chorus generator, which superimposed onto the tones from the main generator additional tones slightly sharp and flat, which adds a slight undulation or chorus effect which can be quite pleasing. It is a musically purer form of the Vibrato Chorus that appeared on other models. The Model E also has a 32-note convex pedalboard that is controlled by four toe pistons located just to the left of the expression pedals,that selected between two preset conbinations, a great-to-pedal coupler, and the pedal drawbars. The drawbars on all Model E's were the ratchet type because that is all there was before about 1950. They have a single contact that touches one busbar at a time, with slight dead spots in between. It was only much later that the second contact was added to the drawbars to bridge the busbars and give a smooth action. I personally never had a problem with the earlier drawbars, but maybe because that is what I learned on, and because I do not play contemporary rock music.</P>


The preamlifier in the Model E console has three tubes: a 6J7 preamplifier for each manual (these tubes are located under circular shield cans) and a 6C5/6J5 output tube.</P>


Hammond speaker cabinets may have been D-20, DR-20, DX-20, or DXR-20, but I have never come across a D20L, and the Service Manual makes no reference to it. I am fairly certain that Hammond never used 6L6 output tubes in any form. The early D-20s used four 2A3s. the later versions used four 6V6s, but no 6L6 are indicated in any tone cabinet up until the time Hammond stopped making them. The two 12" speakers in V formation is typical of the D tone cabinets, however, which again leads to the conclusion that this one may have been modified. The Model E also used a conventional 6-conductor cable to the first tone cabinet. Theconfiguration you describe sounds typical of very large installations in auditoriums where the power requirements far exceeded the console wiring capability and thus separate mains power from a power relay, and signal leads were run to each cabinet. Could this organ possibly have been installed at the Eatons store in Toronto? Department store organ installations were not uncommon at one time.</P>


Here is a link to a description of a Model E that has had a rather interesting history.While close to an original, it has had its electronics modified somewhat by the addition of an internal reverb amplifier and abandonment of the original tube preamplifier. But it is stillclose.</P>


http://www.organ.co.uk/king/hammond/index.html</P>


Worthy of note is that Carol Williams, one of the owners, is very active on the contemporary organ scene.Iwonder if andyg ever worked with her?</P>


I hope all of this helps. After digesting it, I am sure that you will have additional questions. Fire away! These are fabulous instruments, and I welcome the interest!</P>

[johnny b3]

Re: Model E and me. Calling all E owners and enthusiasts.



Everything you describe is correctly similar to this organ:</p>

Typewrite key presets (btw, i own a manual type writer, cool gadgets!), two tremulant controls, chorus drawbar, 32 note pedal board, 4 toe pistons...</p>

BUT it has belt driven self starting motors. </p>

This is indeed an E. However the discrepancies must be due to its Canadian construction by "canadian electric"... Hence the D20L and 6L6 output section...</p>

</p>

I'll write more soon, but the most pressing issue is belts! I have no idea where to turn.</p>

[Model E & Me]

Re: Model E and me. Calling all E owners and enthusiasts.



I am skeptical that the differences in the console and the tone cabinet are due to Canadian manufacture. Hammondsof that era were pretty standard throughout the world, and there would be no need for such drastic modifications, especially where the frequency and voltage of the ac power is exactly the same as in the US. Even the UK instruments, where the power is 240 volt 50 Hz, are impossible to tell from the US versions without looking at the nameplate. In that era capacitors were huge and very expensive, and are absolutely necessary for a self-starting motor, so there would have been no incentive to go that route for practically zero gain. </P>


My guess is that the belt drive and self-starting motor remainsa more recent modification, and quite frankly sounds more likemy wife'ssewing machinethan anything Hammond ever put together. But then anything is possible and I can't claim the last word on the subject by any means.</P>


Just out of curiosity, where is the pulley on the tone generator located for the belt drive, given that in conventional instruments the motor is between the tone generator and tremulant switch (or vibrato scanner on later models)? There was nothing unique about the tone generator or chorus generator in the Model E compared with any other Hammond of similar vintage. I am wondering whether it might be possible to convert it back to the same design as all other generators.</P>

[johnny b3]

Re: Model E and me. Calling all E owners and enthusiasts.



Sorry for the crude diagram (especially the side view of the cog. my point is that the gear nubs are very blunt.)</p>

I couldn't really investigate the tremulant portion of the shaft...the mechanics within that section were encased in a mesh style metal frame as seen in the Carol Williams "Inside2.jpg". The drive train in that photo is similar/identical to 3 series and M's which i've seen. The Synchronous motors motors are identical to one another. I forget the brand name, but both were from Chicago Illinois and resemble one found in a L-100, though not identical. The contents of "inside3.jpg" do not exist in my organ. There is no dividing wall or extra circuitry (Unless that is the reverb mod done her organ).
</p>

</p>

</p>

I'll try to get pictures soon. May not be able to get them until the end of the week...but my memory is pretty clear - the picture is accurate. </p>

If this all stock, unmodified, what is the earliest possible year this could have been made with a single start switch? Two things I should add - there is no sign that any work was done near the on/off switch. It looks clean and original - no sign of there once being 2 switches. Also there was a lable on the swell box which said something along the lines that a conversion was implemented on the organ. I can't remember for sure but I think it was a voltage conversion. I'll confirm this asap.
</p>

</p>

Thanks for the input!</p>

[kkeys]

Re: Model E and me. Calling all E owners and enthusiasts.

[quote user="johnny b3"]


A friend of mine got it this morning - it was destined for the trash. Apparently it was owned by Lady Eaton - of the wealthy Eaton family which resided in Canada and owned the large chain of Eaton department stores. </P>


[/quote]Interesting to read that! Some of those stores had in-storeHammond Organ Studios. </P>

[johnny b3]

Re: Model E and me. Calling all E owners and enthusiasts.



The sticker in the organ says "Converted to 60 Cycles".</p>

This is crazy!!!</p>

[Guest]

Re: Model E and me. Calling all E owners and enthusiasts.

[quote user="johnny b3"]

The sticker in the organ says "Converted to 60 Cycles".</p>

This is crazy!!!</p>

[/quote]</p>

Canadian connections

</p>

Up till the 1950's there was an area near Niagara Falls where
the AC current was 25 cycles. In 1957 or 58 my parents bought a new
washing machine that had to be converted to 60 cycles before we could
use it, we were living in Hamilton Ontario at the time (near the falls).</p>

The
Eaton family were from Toronto (also close to the falls), and extremely
wealthy. Eatons was the largest retailer in Canada, and have been
credited as the first modern (as in 20th century) department store that
literally sold everything a person needed. You could buy everything
from groceries to a complete house construction package. They had
stores all over Canada and catalog that used to be every Canadian
home's wish book. Eatons sold high quality merchandise for the lowest
price (for the quality). They would certainly have sold Hammonds (as
confirmed by others).

</p>

Northern Electric, known today as Nortel, manufactured among
other things, televisions, record players and radios for the Canadian
Market. They were owned by Bell Canada. They would also have had
Eatons as an important customer. </p>

There was apparently a Hammond
plant in Toronto, but probably not in 1937-42 when the E was built.
Canada was at war from 1939 and likely not building branch plants for
US manufacturers. </p>

The Eatons family were also involved in
various local philanthropic activities as were the individual stores.
They sponsored the building of one of the largest churches in Toronto.
To sponsor an organ purchased for church or concert use would be
consistent or they might have had a country 'house' in 25 Hz. land big
enough for a model E. The E was supposed to be a concert model,
probably too big for a regular size home, especially with the
accompanying 6 foot tall speaker box. </p>Put it all together, and
you may find that the mystery E model was sold to be used somewhere in
the Niagara Falls area in a concert hall, church or a large mansion.
Northern Electric was probably involved in making whatever
modifications needed making for 25 Hz. AC. This probably involved
replacing the original Hammond 60 Hz. Motor. In the 50's after 25 Hz.
power was finally phased out, the organ would have to be re-converted
to 60 Hz. Again it probably meant motor replacement, this time with
the most up to date self starting variety, it would not need to be
Hammond nececsarily as turntable motors were synchrononous and self
starting, and our friends at Northern Electric were building them.High end turntables used belt drives. A set of gears can convert any speed to any other speed.

</p>

[Model E & Me]

Re: Model E and me. Calling all E owners and enthusiasts.



This is certainlya most plausible explanation. In the 1930s, 25 Hz power was more extensive than just around Niagara Falls, and the downtown areas of many major cities such as Buffalo and probably Toronto would have hadprimarily 25Hz systems. That was also the frequency most of the old street railways ran on.</P>


I have no way of knowing whether Hammond ever made any 25Hz instruments, but they certainly made 50 Hz instruments for the European market (Carol Williams' Model E was 50 Hz) and for southern California before it was converted to 60 Hz. So I would second everiman's opinion that the self-start motor is probably the consequence of the 60 Hz (re)conversion in the 1950s or later. That time frame would also be most consistent with the technology that enables small self-start synchronous motors. And since the synchronous speed of a 60 Hz motor would not match that of the 25 Hz motor, a belt drive would certainly have made the most sense for speed matching.</P>


It could also be the reason for the non-standard amplifier in the tone cabinet. 25 Hz power transformers can operate safely at 60 Hz but not the other way around, so if the instrument was originally convertedto 25Hz operation it probably would have been simpler to just change out the amplifier rather than replace the power transformer and filter capacitors. When it was converted back to 60 Hz the 25 Hz amplifier could stay.</P>

[Guest]

Re: Model E and me. Calling all E owners and enthusiasts.



Great read! The Pennsylvania RR used 25 Hertz on their main line electrification around 1930. It was at 11,000 volts though. Not good for a Hammond......johnny B3. If you can get ahold of a McMaster-Carr catalog they most likely have a belt for you. I have one and if I can help let me know. Update. Google McMaster-Carr go to power transmission select timing belts and see if they have what you need.</P>


Frank</P>

[Guest]

Re: Model E and me. Calling all E owners and enthusiasts.



[quote user="johnny b3"]I just noticed the belts are not the same - one has 18 teeth while the second has 19 (However it is possible that one belt lost a tooth upon its demise). Plus, I don't know which assembly each came from...I have a sinking feeling this may be a lost cause...can the generators be hooked up as direct drive?
[/quote]</p>

Just a guess, but the purpose of the second generator in the E is to provide a chorus effect. This was achieved by having the same tones played slightly out of tune with each other to create some degree of beating. Slight beating is characteristic of pipe organs due to the fact that the pipes are never going to be exactly in tune with each other, and is actually quite pleasing. The early Hammonds were criticized because their sound was too 'perfect' and therefore boring, and that this was why they did not sound like a pipe organ, which was after all, the intent. So the E added the chorus generator, a duplicate generator tuned slightly off. Mr E will have to help out here, whether the extra generator was tuned differently using different tonewheels, or if they achieved the chorus effect by running identical TWGs at different speeds (hence the different gear ratios), In any case the different gear ratios are almost certainly <u>somebodies</u> attempt to get more chorus effect out of the organ. Take your belt remainders to a gates distributor, chances are they will be able to help out. Small toothed belts are used by vacuum cleaners in those horrible carpet beater bar thingies that always eat your speaker cords, shoelaces and small pets. Maybe you can even find what you need at Walmart.
</p>

[Guest]

Re: Model E and me. Calling all E owners and enthusiasts.

Whoops belay that, misread the post, the number of teeth on the belt would have no effect on overall gear ratio.

[Model E & Me]

Re: Model E and me. Calling all E owners and enthusiasts.



The Chorus generator used different tonewheels to produce frequencies slightly above and slightly below the correct frequency. For some frequencies, separate tonewheels were used for "above" and "below", for others single "laminated" tonewheels were used for both. Frequencies on either side of the correct frequency were needed to give theproper undulation, which, by the way, were only applied tofrequencies 56 and above. The frequency differences were very small - 0.8% for frequencies 56 - 67 and 0.4% for frequencies 68 - 91. Running the Chorus generator slow would defeat the purpose and sound rather strange I would guess.</P>


Since Hammond used synchronous motors to keep the instrument in tune, the generator speed had to be an integral fraction of 3600 rpm, i.e., 3600, 1800, 1200, 900. The main generator runs at 1200 rpm, and I believe the chorus generator did also. There is no way that 18 &amp; 19 tooth belts could match those speeds given the same number of drive and driven sprocket teeth.</P>


Tonedeaf - thanks for the remembrance of the P RR! I believe there still may be 25 Hz left along the PA and NJ rail corridors near NYC. Up until the days of power electronics, 25 Hz was about as high as they could use for heavy traction purposes, whether freight trains or street railways.</P>
<P mce_keep="true"></P>

[johnny b3]

Re: Model E and me. Calling all E owners and enthusiasts.



Amazing information!</p>

The McMaster-Carr site did not have the appropriate belt replacement. There are no belts with that few teeth. Belt specs that I need are:</p>

</p>

-
Single-Sided with Trapezoidal Teeth</p>


Width: 3/16"</p>

<span class="itmhd">Pitch</span> : 1/4"</p><table cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody><tr><td class="ListFeatureImageCell"></td>
<td class="ListCell"><nobr> </nobr></td></tr></tbody></table>

Outer Circle (circumference): 4.4"</p>

Teeth: 19
</p>

I checked the gears and they are all the same size, so no speed conversion is completed.</p>