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  • M3 Modification question.



    Ok, I have an M3, which my original intention was to buy a BOSS
    rotary effects pedal,....install a 1/4" line out, and have a cheap but
    somewhat same sound as the traditional that we all love and share.</p>

    Here's my videos on it. http://hammondm3.blogspot.com/</p>

    The bottom video on that page (the one posted at 10:16am), shows what I did to install a line out,...that I found on a website, </p>

    http://www.wikihow.com/Install-a-Line-out-Jack-on-a-Hammond-M3-Electric-Organ</p>

    HOWEVER,
    is the signal that I used coming from the AMP!?!?!?!?! This is what
    was directed to do on the site, and they called it the preamp. So, Am
    I throwing serious wattage at my peavey, or hardly any wattage to my
    peavy?!?!?! </p>

    I've been using it this way for months, and not had any problems. I know I need to replace some tubes though, maybe it's not sending enough wattage to do any damage,.....geez I don't know.
    </p>PLEASE HELP!

  • #2
    Re: M3 Modification question.



    If you built the line out per the schematic @ Hammond wiki you should have no problems. The resistors in the circuit pad the output down quite a bit. If it plays cleanly without distorting it should be fine.</P>


    H101</P>

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: M3 Modification question.

      I am trying to come up with a line out circuit that will accomodate running the speaker signal into pedals. The setup I have on my chopped m3 uses the circuit I found on hammond wiki but I ommitted the potentiometer and ran the hot signal to a passive direct box. I then converted the xlr output from the di to a 1/4 inch mono jack. I find this to be redundant and in time, I would prefer to find the right circuit to achieve this without having to deal with all the conversions. If anyone has any ideas on the matter, I would love to put it in motion. I tried to use the exact scematic from hammond wiki on my studio m3 but I am getting a lot of high end hum...annoying.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: M3 Modification question.



        Go back to stock - Does it still hum?</p>

        Then try this:</p>

        </p>

        The switchcraft jack is not totaly nesecary - it is used if you want the internal speakers permanently connected while having the option to silence them when headphones are used. The point is that 47ohm and 10ohm resistors are used to pad the signal. This is a great deal higher than line level but still much safer for any external circuitry that you may use. The positive lead connects to both resistors, the output of the 47ohm connects to the positive output lead and the 10ohm connects to the ground. You can wire up a simple 1/4" output on the organ with this configuration - use a double-pole double-throw switch before the resistor network to have the internal speakers as an option.
        </p>

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: M3 Modification question.



          Well, here's something else,...</P>


          I have been having trouble with this, as I don't want to ruin my organ. I've been in contact with several people who all say that this is a bad idea, however, before they told me about it being a bad idea, I had already been using the organ with this setup for months. </P>


          So, I called a "pro" today that works at a local guitar, and electronics shop. The man sounded very knowledgable. He said that I should install a 30 watt, 16ohm resistor in my setup. After we had been talking for a while, I asked him "Why couldn't I just do away with the 'throw switch' in the project box, and just keep the organ in it's original condition, attach my speaker wire from my project box to the speaker leads, so that the speaker will take on the role of the "resistor". He said that I could do that, and that would solve the problem.</P>


          So, I did that.</P>


          Well, as soon as I turned on my Peavy, the whole house shook with this incredible low bass, vibrating, sonic boom of a hum. The kids started crying, it was great.</P>


          So Iscratched that idea.</P>


          Now, the way I have it setup, in my opinion is no different than the "wikihow"I just don't have the throw switch installed bc I don't see the need to have the internal speaker on,.....ever,....in my setup. </P>


          So, I have the green, and black wires coming from the "pre-amp" and going directly to my 1/4" socket. No switch or anything. </P>


          Does anyone see any problem with that?</P>

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: M3 Modification question.




            So, is the "wiki how" page you've been using

            this?
            </p>



            please clarify. have you tapped the "preamp" or are you tapping onto the black and green speaker leads? are you using the high wattage resistor suggested by the tech and wiki?
            </p>

            </p>

            It sounds to me like you're taking the powered signal. The M3 amp is a preamp and power amp all at once. If i'm correct to assume you're using the speaker leads (black/green) without the internal speaker attached, AND plugging it directly into your peavey amp instrument input, then that would be the reason you woke the kids. Unless you used the required load resistors, you fed the amp a hot signal. The peavey may have a 'power-amp input'. I'm not sure if this jack provides a load (say, the 8ohm load of its own speaker), but if does, then you can plug the speaker leads from the m3 directly into the amp. </p>

            As for damaging the hammond amp - a tube amp needs to see a load. If the signal output is not met with a resistance (ie. resistor/speaker), it stresses the tubes and transformer - the two most expensive parts in the amp. Your goal is to get a line level output for an effects loop/external amplification by padding down the signal while simultaneously fooling the amp into "seeing" a speaker load.
            </p>

            </p>

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: M3 Modification question.



              Yeah, let me clarify,...</P>


              NO, that is not the wiki-how site that I used. I used this one,.... </P>


              So let me add one small detail. According to the wiki page that I have on this entry, there are no resistors called for at all. That is why the flags went up in the first place. However, I played for months like this, without any problems. I had a NICE clean signal. No distortion. Granted, I may have had problems in the future if I had continued playing it like this though. </P>


              As per this "pro" that I talked to yesterday, he said that I could basically alligator clip to the green and black speaker wires going to the internal speaker, and keep the internal speaker hooked up to act as the "resistor". So when I did that, THAT's when I got the huge feedback. However, I also realized after uninstalling it that way and going back to the way I had it before, that one of my daughters had cranked some input levels on my peavy way high. I believe that MIGHT have been the reason (and the small detail I forgot to mention in my earlier entry). </P>


              Something else that happened since these entry's, was that I went back to the way I had it according to THIS wiki (without resistors). When the signal is sent to my peavy, or my recording equipment, I get a very nice clean sound (without resistors). BUT, I tried an effects pedal for the first time today with that setup (without resistors), and when the pedal is engaged, I get A LOT of distortion with it (It's a Cry Baby wah pedal). When I disengage the pedal, I have a nice clean sound again,...</P>


              I'm just really confused......</P>

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: M3 Modification question.



                Are the inputs on the recording gear/peavey, which sound clean, meant for a powered signal?</p>

                Or are the inputs meant for low level signals (i.e. electric guitar)?</p>

                </p>

                As it stands, you are sending a POWERED signal to your peripheries. Firstly, you don't ever want the internal speaker connected if you'll never use it anyway, so don't use it to load the power amp. If its loading the amp then it will sound...and you don't want that. </p>

                If the peripheries (peavey/recording stuff) are implementing a power-amp input which has a built-in load for this external signal (you want an 8ohm or greater load) then you should be having no problems. At least, you will have everything hooked up correctly and the M3 amp will not be at risk due to running without a load. </p>

                BUT, if you don't have these power amp inputs, and instead are using the line level, or lower signal input (like a normal instrument/microphone input), then this will not provide a load for the M3 tube amp. Furthermore, i'm sure its not meant to be hooked up that way. I'd expect mad distortion from plugging such a hot signal into a low-level input. Plugging a hot signal into your pedals would definitely cause adverse noise and distortion.
                </p>


                SO - either you plug in a hot signal to a power amp input and use the amp's built-in effects loop to run your pedals OR pad down the outgoing signal with the resistors as in the hammond wiki that i posted above. The latter will provide a signal suitable for direct use with headphones, pedals and line (or below line) level inputs on guitar amps, AND it will protect the tube amp because it is properly loaded.
                </p>

                </p>


                </p>

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: M3 Modification question.



                  By the way, </p>

                  I ran this current setup through my cry baby effects pedal. </p>

                  If the pedal is off, I have no problems at all. I get a very nice clean signal. Hot, but nice.</p>

                  If the pedal is on, I get a lot of distortion, and have to turn down the volume through the organs expression pedal to take off the distortion. Sounds cool, but I don't want to jack up this organ.</p>

                  Hope that helps,...
                  </p>

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: M3 Modification question.



                    [quote user="johnny b3"] &lt;snippage&gt;OR pad down the outgoing signal with the resistors as in the Hammond wiki that i posted above. The latter will provide a signal suitable for direct use with headphones, pedals and line (or below line) level inputs on guitar amps, AND it will protect the tube amp because it is properly loaded. [/quote]My humble ( or arrogant and conceited depending on your point of view) opinion is that johnny b3 has the solution here. Do it that way. The other issue with either way is that your guitar amp is looking for an input impedance of about 5K to 10K ohms. All of these line out diagrams don't give the amp anywhere near that to receive at the input jack. In a perfect world one would design an amplifier specifically for the output from the PRE-AMPLIFIER of the M3. Pia. Just do the one that JB3 indicated. You'll be happy. I would up the 8 ohm resistor to 20 watts personally.</P>


                    You won't find a 20K audio taper pot anywhere. Use a 25K audio. For the 10uF non-polarized cap use a Solen from http://www.tubesandmore.com </P>


                    <FONT size=1>R-V38-25KA =potentiometer</FONT></P>


                    <FONT face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" color=#cc3333 size=1>C-FT10-250</FONT> = capacitor</P>


                    You can get the rest of the stuff there too.
                    </P>

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: M3 Modification question.



                      </p>

                      Are the inputs on the recording gear/peavey, which sound clean, meant for a powered signal? Do they have this 'power-amp input' jack?
                      </p>

                      Or are the inputs meant for low level signals (i.e. electric guitar)?</p>
                      </p>

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: M3 Modification question.



                        I just did this to my own M3. After a lot of failed attempts (trying to implement the caps and resistors from the HammondWiki diagram) I eventually just used the wikihow version with a 20k pot controlling the output, and the 8ohm, 20 watt resistor. I found this best because then I could get all the distortion I wanted from the amp/preamp while still sending a low level signal to my guitar amp. However, in reading this thread I realized how stupid I am forforgetting that my amp has a power amp input...so much for all of that.</P>


                        Anyway, unless there's something I'm forgetting, those parts should still help with a) controlling your output into the amp and b) providing a load to the amp. Together they cost about $5 at RadioShack and are easy to include in the circuit. But if your Peavey has an independent power amp input, its probably best to use that.</P>


                        Anyone with more experience, please correct me if I'm missing something...</P>
                        1955 M3 (in good hands!)
                        1962 A100
                        1942 BC
                        too many other keyboards...

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: M3 Modification question.



                          Yeah, you know what guys, I think that I'm just going to break down, save up, and buy the "line out" that Trek II makes for spinet organs. I know it's way more expensive, but hey, it's a nice solid hard core solution, and it's from Trek II, takes two seconds to install,.......yeah</P>


                          Everyone thanks for all your efforts. </P>

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: M3 Modification question.



                            I am trying to do something similar with an M2 I was recently given. My intention is to add a line out that I can use either by running it into the effects return of my XK-3 (and use the System expression pedal for volume control) or run directly into the 1/4" input of a 3300 Leslie and use the M2's expression pedal. At first I connected wires with a 1/4" female jack to the M2's ampspeaker connector screwsbut the signal was too hot and I was picking up a local AM radio station. Istill had the M2's speaker connected at this point.I next connected a mic cord and attached the shield to the amp's chassis. I also disconnected the wires to the speaker and replaced them with an 8 Ohm 25 watt resistor.I connected the mic cord to a small mixer and turned the input gain all the way down and kept the mixer's controls low. This allowed a nice clean signal to the XK-3 but if I moved the gain control above the minimum the peak indicator would light. Next I used an XLR to TRS adapter along with a TRS to male T/S and male R/S cable and connected bothto a DOD 240resistance mixer and connected its output to the mixer.</P>


                            I did this to keep the signal carrying wires shielded at least to the resistance mixer. At the resistance mixer the signal wires areconnected through the internal resistors and the control pots but I think they also become connected to the shield wire as well. This allows me to lower the signal into the mixer so I don't light the peak light and cause distortion in the mixer. The mixer gives me the ability to eq the M2's signal and it makes it easy to adjust the output volume to the XK-3. I have found that I can leave either of the two R/M controls at minimum and use the other one to raise the volume into the mixer but if I turn both to the same point in their rotations the volume drops some.</P>


                            Is what I have done a workable solution or have I possibly caused a problem I don't see? I have looked into DI boxes and I havefound a couple that can take speaker level signals. Would one of these be a better solution than the resistance mixer?The onesby ART for example will take a speaker signalbut they have 1/4" unbalanced inputs.Ifa DI box is a better solution, should I try to keep the shield and the ring separated at the XLR/TRS adapter?</P>


                            Thanks for the help and advice.</P>


                            The M2 sounds very nice. It sat unused for years in the basement of a church. I was told I could have it if I could get it out of the basement. The guy who told me that told me he had made the same offer several times over the years and the people never showed up. They probably were hoping to find a mint B3with twin 122's. A little oil and cleaning and it came to life. I also like to think the donationI made to the church got me some good karma. </P>


                            The serial # is 19738 and it has JD III 1/7/52 written on theT/G chassis. It has a field coil speaker and the amp is an AO-14-1A. Should I disconnect the field coil wires and put a resistor in their place or just leave them alone?</P>


                            Thanks again.</P>
                            <P mce_keep="true"></P>
                            <P mce_keep="true"></P>
                            <P mce_keep="true"></P>
                            <P mce_keep="true"></P>

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: M3 Modification question.

                              Unless you're going to chop the organ just leave the field coil speaker in place and the wires hooked to it. If you remove the wires then you need a 700 ohm, 20 watt or higher rated resister. Thanks for the amp info.
                              Hammonds: A; AB; B3; D; E; 6-M3's; 2-A100; T582C.
                              Leslies: 3-31H; 21H, 22H, 4-44W; 46W; 25; 47; 45; 125; 50C; 51; 55C; 2-120; 122; 122A; 145; 147; 245; 770; 825; 2-102; 2-103; 300.
                              Wicks 2/5 pipe organ; Yamaha upright; Kurzweil Micro Piano & Micro B with M-Audio Oxygen 61; Yamaha DGX520; Wurlitzer 4100 (it came with a Leslie!). Peavey KB100 keyboard amp. Peavey Bass Guitar. Yes, I have A. D. (acquisition disorder) and don't want it cured.

                              Comment

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