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M-3 with a 6147 kit and a Leslie 120 - fast/slow switch doesn't work

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  • M-3 with a 6147 kit and a Leslie 120 - fast/slow switch doesn't work



    <SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Greetings,<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>


    <SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">I recently purchased a used M-3 with a 6147 kit installed and a used Leslie 120. It sounds great, but the fast/slow switch on the 6147 doesn't do anything - the leslie just runs fast. I'm not very knowledgeable when it comes to electronics, but I’d like to get this working right on my own.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>I tested the switch on the 6147 with a continuity tester, and it works fine.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>


    <SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Can someone tell me if there’s an easy way to tell whether the problem is with the 6147 kit or the relay in the leslie?<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Is there something I can use to test pins 2 &amp; 5 out of the console?<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>


    <SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Thanks,<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>


    <SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Scott<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
    <P mce_keep="true"></P>

  • #2
    Re: M-3 with a 6147 kit and a Leslie 120 - fast/slow switch doesn't work



    Did you connect the switch to pins 2 and 5? or 2 to 3 like you were supposed to?</p>

    Quick rundown:</p>

    Pin 1, gnd</p>

    Pin 2, one side of trem switch</p>

    Pin 3, other side of trem switch and one side of AC</p>

    Pin 4, other side of AC</p>

    Pin 5, jumpered to pin 4</p>

    Pin 6, Audio hot</p>

    If you've already done this, use a multi-meter set to 200VAC and carefully measure at pins 2 and 5 with the switch closed, you should read 120. (you're on the same continent, right?). If all is well at this point, repeat the above test on the other end of your leslie cable. </p>

    Recall that the pin numbers are backwards (Counter Clockwise from 12 O'clock) when you are looking at a female socket from the front (as well as when you are looking at the leslie cable on the leslie end. At any rate, you are only interested in the pins at 3 and 9 O'clock since you're getting audio through (1 and 6) as well as tremolo (3 and 4).
    </p>

    P.s. the leslie will always run fast when the switch is open or not connected at all. </p>

    p.p.s. PLEASE be careful or bring someone more qualified to help. </p>

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: M-3 with a 6147 kit and a Leslie 120 - fast/slow switch doesn't work



      Hello JB3 - </P>


      Thanks for the reply. The kit wassupposedly installedby a professional andbeing usedwith a Leslie 145 before I bought the hammond, and I haven't modified anything. I tried what you said and hooked a meter up to pins 2 &amp; 5, and got absolutely nothing...dead. Tried moving the switch back and forth and still nothing. I'll check out the wiring as prescribed above, but I'm not optimistic at this point.</P>


      This really upsets me, as I paid $400 for the M3 on what the seller described as a "studio-maintained Hammond." I should have been more cautious given theguy's personal hygiene and the cleanliness of his studio. He obviously didn't take care of his stuff very well. And unfortunately I didn't have a leslie to test it on at the time.</P>


      I'm not really looking to spend $300 on a new 6147. Can these things be repaired? All I see that looks to have gone bad is an electrolytic capacitor, no fuses or anything that I can see. Should I change the electrolytic and see what happens? Any suggestions?</P>


      Thanks again - Scott</P>

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: M-3 with a 6147 kit and a Leslie 120 - fast/slow switch doesn't work



        Absolutely not! You are in the right forum my friend, lots of helpful people here. Turn that frown upside down.
        </p>

        These intruments are largely user-servicable (with a little electronics know-how)...I had none and slowly learned as I fixed minor problems with the help of the members of the board.</p>

        Lets backtrack a little bit. It sounds like you're getting audio. Is it clean? is it passable? Usually people change electrolytics when the audio signal develops a hum. You say it sounds good, so lets skip that area.</p>

        It sounds like your getting power. and nothing abnormal is happening (aside from no slow speed).</p>

        So the leslie spins fast, and sounds good. Fear not, you are probably really close to having the leslie working.</p>

        Unplug the organ and remove the box from the cabinet. Have a look
        inside. For now, forget about the 5 pin section. Everything except the
        switch seems to be working fine. You should have the tremolo on/off
        switch terminating at a 2-pin round socket in the 6147 box. Looking
        into the back of the box, you should see those two contacts from the
        trem switch being jumpered to pins 2 and 3 of the back of the 6 pin
        female socket. Recall that now you are looking at the socket from the
        back. Now the pin numbers are clockwise from the index mark (small nub
        between pins 1 and 6). I can't see your box so they may have pins 2 and
        3 jumpered, with the trem switch running between pins 4 and 5. No
        difference if it is.
        </p>

        can you confirm the above? your problem should lie within. Have a look.</p>

        You checked pins 2 and 5 for 120V at the 6147 connector box, correct? (as opposed to on the leslie side of the 6 pin cable). A good test is to remove the switch from the picture. This requires no disassembly. Simply jumper the relay pins inside the 6147 box. Since I can't see your box, you may have pins 2 and 3 jumpered, with the relay trem switch connecting pins 4 and 5. Have a look inside and you should see one set of pins jumpered together. If its 4 and 5, jumper 2 and 3 (or vice versa). You can do this with alligator clips or soldering in a small connection. Your working with line voltages so make sure you do a clean job. No exposed metal should be at risk of touching another pin, or the 6147 chassis. Use aligator pins carefully. You don't need to re-attach the box to the organ. Just let it hang or keep it out of the way somehow. When you start the organ the leslie *should* be spinning slow. The leslie is not suspect (yet) as you aren't seeing 120V at pins 2 and 5 with the trem switch closed.
        </p>

        </p>

        Just to bring you up to speed, a simple FYI for your benefit. Leslie pins: you know about audio, pins 1/6. These style leslies (145/147 etc included) use pin 3/4 to power the leslie amp and the motors. The speed switching is accomplished by passing a 120V line into a electromagnetic relay inside the leslie. The relay, when unpowered, diverts power to the fast motors. The relay is hooked up to pins 2 and 5. When 120V is passed to those pins it causes the relay to close, and divert power to the slow motors. One half of the AC should be taken care already (i.e. pin 4, with one side of the AC, is jumpered to pin 5, one half of the relay, supposidly jumpered inside the 6147 box). So, all thats missing is to jumper the other side of the AC (pin 3) to the other side of the relay (pin 2). the tremolo switch handles 120V AC between these two pins, causing the relay to close and divert power to the slow motor. Hopefully this gives you an idea of what you're looking for. You have power and audio, but the tremolo switch does NOT provide power to pins 2 or 5 properly.
        </p>

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: M-3 with a 6147 kit and a Leslie 120 - fast/slow switch doesn't work



          Much thanks to you J-B3 for your detailed explanation of how the system works. It completely makes sense now. I've been combing the internet looking for this kind of detailed information for days now.</P>


          I'm getting clean audio from the box, and the leslie is spinning. Unfortunately, I won't be able to get to the organ for a couple of days to check the configuration like you mentioned above, but I do recall seeing pins jumpered in the back of the box. I'm going to get some alligator clips from Radio Shackand jumper pins 4 &amp; 5 (or 2 &amp; 3) and hopefully I'll get the slow spin.</P>


          One thing about the 6147 that you mentioned above is the tremolo switch terminating at the box. From what I recall, the switch ends at a wiring harness which plugs into a small circuit board with a lot of resistors and the electrolytic mentioned above. If I get a slow spin after jumpering, is it safe to assume that my problem lies in this circuit board (since the switch is working)? Thanks again and I'll let you know how I make out.</P>

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: M-3 with a 6147 kit and a Leslie 120 - fast/slow switch doesn't work

            Sounds like you'll be fine, but mention of alligator clips on 120v mains AC prompts me to say the usual 'be careful'!
            It's not what you play. It's not how you play. It's the fact that you're playing that counts.

            New website now live - www.andrew-gilbert.com

            Current instruments: Roland Atelier AT900 Platinum Edition, Yamaha Genos, Yamaha PSR-S970, Kawai K1m
            Retired Organs: Lots! Kawai SR6 x 2, Hammond L122, T402, T500 x 2, X5. Conn Martinique and 652. Gulbransen 2102 Pacemaker. Kimball Temptation.
            Retired Leslies, 147, 145 x 2, 760 x 2, 710, 415 x 2.
            Retired synths: Korg 700, Roland SH1000, Jen Superstringer, Kawai S100F, Kawai S100P, Kawai K1

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: M-3 with a 6147 kit and a Leslie 120 - fast/slow switch doesn't work

              <BLOCKQUOTE>


              I had a 122 doing this. It was a bad contact in the half moon switch.</P>


              Cheers</P>


              Dave</P>
              <P mce_keep="true"></P></BLOCKQUOTE>

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: M-3 with a 6147 kit and a Leslie 120 - fast/slow switch doesn't work



                Dave, he is using a different kit with no half moon style switch.</p>

                I was confusing this kit with the 26-1, so there is no 5-pin socket or 2-pin trem socket on your model. I'm not familiar with the exact switch you have, The same principals apply to the 6 pins however.
                </p>

                If NO pins are jumpered on the back of the 6 pin socket, (each pin has its own wire, 6 total) then the switch you have may be DPDT. In which case you will need to jumper both 2-3 and 4-5. Check it out first, post back here if you're unsure.
                </p>

                Maybe someone with this kit can confirm.</p>

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: M-3 with a 6147 kit and a Leslie 120 - fast/slow switch doesn't work



                  Sorry</P>


                  I had an 8010 on a Hammond L122/ Leslie 122R with this problem. [:$]</P>


                  Cheers</P>


                  Dave</P>

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: M-3 with a 6147 kit and a Leslie 120 - fast/slow switch doesn't work



                    Hi Folks,</P>


                    OK, I think I've done something very bad. I jumpered the pins as suggested above, and I did get a slowspin as soon as I plugged the organ in andthe organ wouldn't start.</P>


                    Aggravated with the results, I went back and forth between jumpering 2/3 &amp; 4/5, and somehow I accidentally jumpered 3/4. This caused a horrible sound and putrid smoke began to plume from the tone shelf. All of my hopes and dreams of having a well runningsetup literally went up in smoke. I frantically took off the tone generator cover to find the motors still billowing smoke.</P>


                    As expected, the start/run buttons don't do anything now. Can someone please tell me if I've simply fried the motors, or if I've done irreparable damage? If it can't be fixed, is anyone in the New England area interested ina fried M3? Hopefully, my Hammond days aren't over.</P>

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: M-3 with a 6147 kit and a Leslie 120 - fast/slow switch doesn't work



                      Sorry to hear of your bad fortune but all is not lost. The M3 is a great organ and is very forgiving and worth saving. A lot of us have learned what we know from making these kind of mistakes so you're not alone. You'll just have to have some determination and hang in there as it can probably be fixed and you'll learn something in the meantime. Most Hammond/Leslie owners learn to fix their own equipment. Begin repair class 101.
                      </p>

                      First, were both motors smoking or just one? Which one or both? Looking in from back, start motor is on the right, run motor attached to the round scanner vibrato on the left. Please be detailed in your answers. Motors are on ebay all the time and they're easy to replace. The switches may be fried but all these parts are easy to find on ebay.
                      </p>

                      Next, can you post a picture of your 6147 box on here? Both inside and outside. Maybe we can figure out if it has been altered, which is possibly the cause of your initial problems. Just take your time and don't be in a hurry. When it gets to working again you'll appreciate it more.</p>

                      Do you have a VOM (volt ohm meter) to check current? If not, If you have a Harbor Freight store in your area they have them for about $5.00. You should have one do tests with. You need to be able to check continuity. </p>Found motors on ebay: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=250385846971

                      E&amp;ME is in New England but I don't know how close to you. He is a great help.
                      </p>
                      Hammonds: A; AB; B3; D; E; 6-M3's; 2-A100; T582C.
                      Leslies: 3-31H; 21H, 22H, 4-44W; 46W; 25; 47; 45; 125; 50C; 51; 55C; 2-120; 122; 122A; 145; 147; 245; 770; 825; 2-102; 2-103; 300.
                      Wicks 2/5 pipe organ; Yamaha upright; Kurzweil Micro Piano & Micro B with M-Audio Oxygen 61; Yamaha DGX520; Wurlitzer 4100 (it came with a Leslie!). Peavey KB100 keyboard amp. Peavey Bass Guitar. Yes, I have A. D. (acquisition disorder) and don't want it cured.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: M-3 with a 6147 kit and a Leslie 120 - fast/slow switch doesn't work



                        Oh scott! Horrible news!!</p>

                        The bright side is you got the slow speed...ha...ha... At least you've narrowed down that problem to an open circuit or bad switch in the actual fast/slow switch mechanism. </p>

                        That aside, lets deal with the more...um...pressing issues. </p>

                        Before this incident, was the leslie hooked up so that it spun as soon as you plugged the organ in? or did you need to turn the organ on for the leslie to spin?</p>

                        If the organ wasn't turning on, what type of horrible sound did you hear? was it coming from the leslie or the tone generator shelf?</p>

                        I guess the first thing we need to figure out is what caused the organ to not work once you jumpered the relay pins. (before you jumpered the AC pins...doh!)</p>

                        </p>

                        Sorry about your bad luck! hopefully you'll be up for undertaking the repair job. Otherwise you could probably find another M3 in the classifieds for $0 - $200. It would be nice if you could get someone to fix the M3 though...Can never have too many in this day and age.
                        </p>

                        </p>

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: M-3 with a 6147 kit and a Leslie 120 - fast/slow switch doesn't work



                          When youspend timeinside your Hammond, don't confuse it with "doing time"! What you learn from repairs and the like is amazing, you become atech all of a sudden (Jonny's job on his Model E has been HUGE. He must know a LOT now!)</P>


                          And the BEST thing is, you appreciate yourHammond infinitely more thanyou did even before, because its moved in and taken over a whole lot more of your life than just playing the thing! Enjoy the ride. Your stress levels will decrease and you'll feel on top o' the world as you become a tec-master.</P>
                          <P mce_keep="true"></P>


                          Cheers!</P>


                          -Brendon</P>
                          -1958 Hofner 550 archtop guitar -1959 C3 and PR40- -1964 Busillachio Harmonium- -1964 M101-
                          -1967ish Leslie 122- -1975 T500 (modded..chopped, and reassembled!)-
                          -DIY 760 FrankenLeslie/rat hideout-
                          -1980 Electrokey Electric Piano- -Yamaha electric Harmonium (early 80's?)-
                          -1990 Jansen GMF150 amp- -1992 Korg 01W/fd- -1992 G&L S-500 geetar.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: M-3 with a 6147 kit and a Leslie 120 - fast/slow switch doesn't work



                            Thank you all for the support. Given that my troubles aren't more than dead motors and a couple of fried switches, I have no intention of giving up onthe M3.After having a taste of the real thing, there's just no way I could settle for one of thoseclonewheel drawbar modules with a leslie simulator. Next time, I'll be sure not to mess with the Hammond after ahard day at work and a few pints (in that order at least)[:S]. I'm just hoping the amp isn't damaged.</P>


                            I'll try my best to answer the questions on this post. Admiral - Both motors were definitly smoking. I do have a volt/ohm meter, and I'll check the switches for continuity. I'll also get a picture of the 6147 and post here. Thereare definitely no pins jumpered asis. JonnyB3 - After jumpering 2/3 &amp; 4/5, the leslie began spinning (slow) as soon as I plugged in the organ. Is this normal? The organ only made the awful sound after I jumpered the AC pins (doh is right!), which I'm guessing was the motors frying. I have to admit I was tempted to finda new organ, andthere's an A-100 in Long Island for $500 http://longisland.craigslist.org/msg/1071463361.html Brendon-I'll definitely keep it in perspective. I bought the ticket, now I must take the ride!</P>


                            Thanks again and I'll post as soon as I get more information.</P>
                            <P mce_keep="true"></P>
                            <P mce_keep="true"></P>
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                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: M-3 with a 6147 kit and a Leslie 120 - fast/slow switch doesn't work

                              [quote user="tonewheel1966"]
                              <BLOCKQUOTE>


                              I had a 122 doing this. It was a bad contact in the half moon switch.</P>


                              Cheers</P>


                              Dave</P>
                              <P mce_keep="true"></P></BLOCKQUOTE>


                              [/quote]</P>


                              So was it a switch (half moon or other) issue?</P>

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