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  • M-3 smoking

    <DIV>
    <DIV><FONT color=#008000 size=6 face="Comic Sans MS">
    <DIV><FONT color=#008000 size=3 face="Comic Sans MS">I did manage to burn some thing. </FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT color=#008000 size=3 face="Comic Sans MS"></FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT color=#008000 size=3 face="Comic Sans MS">I was replacing the power cord. It's soldered to terminals inside the amp. I un-soldered the black and</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT color=#008000 size=3 face="Comic Sans MS">green wires that presumably come from the foot pedal, the terminals they go to are on the back of the</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT color=#008000 size=3 face="Comic Sans MS">amp marked GN and BK respectively.</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT color=#008000 size=3 face="Comic Sans MS">I un-linked the foot pedal, removed tubes and removed 4 screws holding amp to bottom.</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT color=#008000 size=3 face="Comic Sans MS">I un-soldered white and black wires from terminus in the amp; ran new pwr. cord through amp chassis, </FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT color=#008000 size=3 face="Comic Sans MS">soldered </FONT><FONT color=#008000 size=3 face="Comic Sans MS">wires in place. did not use green ground wire. Found Grommet was too small for new cord</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT color=#008000 size=3 face="Comic Sans MS">re-installed old wire.</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT color=#008000 size=3 face="Comic Sans MS">Re-assembled. </FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT color=#008000 size=3 face="Comic Sans MS">Plugged it in.</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT color=#008000 size=3 face="Comic Sans MS">Turned on start switch;s</FONT><FONT color=#008000 size=3 face="Comic Sans MS">haft turned kinda slow but was speeding up. When it was spinning</FONT><FONT color=#008000 size=3 face="Comic Sans MS"> as fast as it was gonna go I l</FONT><FONT color=#008000 size=3 face="Comic Sans MS">et go start switch and hit run switch.</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT color=#008000 size=3 face="Comic Sans MS"></FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT color=#008000 size=3 face="Comic Sans MS">SNAP, CRACK, SMOKE!</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT color=#008000 size=3 face="Comic Sans MS"></FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT color=#008000 size=3 face="Comic Sans MS">Turned (Cussed) off run switch. Unplugged the unit. Saw a little smoke on left side either from under the vibrato generator or </FONT><FONT color=#008000 size=3 face="Comic Sans MS">under it couldn't tell for sure.</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT color=#008000 size=3 face="Comic Sans MS">Investigated; un-soldered the Green and black wires, removed the tubes, unscrewed the amp, looked </FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT color=#008000 size=3 face="Comic Sans MS">inside found no obviously burned items, saw no grounded wires/components. Could I have put a tube in wrong?</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT size=3></FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT size=3>I have no idea how to proceed.</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT size=3></FONT><FONT size=3></FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT size=3>I know that voltage is measured from+ or - and ground, amps are measured from an open circuit neg on </FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT size=3>the supply side and pos. on the downstream side?, Ohms is a measurement of resistance in a complete or </FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT size=3>partial circuit. I have a VOM.</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT size=3></FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT size=3>I need some help badly.</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT size=3></FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT size=3></FONT></DIV></FONT>
    </DIV></DIV>

  • #2
    Re: M-3 smoking



    Check the electrical wires throughout the organ. From your description, it sounds as though the insulation on a wire carrying mains voltage has deteriorated enough to cause a dead short. It may be prudent to replace all the wiring that carries voltage between the amp, switches, run and start motors. While changing the electrical cord, its possible you might have caused the insulation to crack and fall off somewhere else in the organ unintentionally. You might start by examining the wiring to the run motor and looking for signs of arcing in that vicinity. There is no way to put a tube in incorrectly without bending pins and making a real mess of things.</P>


    Here is a link to the service manual for your organ, if you don't already have it: http://www.archive.org/details/Hammo...delsMM2M3M-100.</P>

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: M-3 smoking



      NEW INFORMATION!</P>


      When I removed the tubes the second time I was carefully to arrange them in a line side by side in the order they were removed; well I was VERY CAREFUL about looking at the tube ID number and the stamped tube number next to the tube sockets; I found at least one out of place. When I was re-installing the tubes thefirst time after my attempted power cord change Ithink one tube was very stiff to get in the socket... Theory: wrong tube in the hole sent too much voltage/current to a component and the high power over heated the part and broke it.Explains the snap and crack and the bit of smoke....</P>


      I looked the amp over and found nothing obviously toasted.</P>


      I don't know if the pedal draw bar was connected to the variable condenser before all this. I installed the tang on the push rod of the variablecondenser into the slot of the draw bar; I believe this is correct; my brother's M-3 is like this. Could there be a problem in this (possibly) "new" equation?</P>


      Underneath the ampwhere the power cord is soldered, There are 3 terminals under the power transformer; Looking for the rear of the organ the terminal on the left has a gray wire soldered to it; the next 2 are for the power connection; I know it's AC and I know this was built before the days of polarized plugs; but does it matter what terminal the black and white wires(power cord) are soldered to? The schematic does not show it.</P>


      I can't think of anything else to add.</P>


      Your thoughts.....</P>

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: M-3 smoking

        [quote user="dna9656"]

        Underneath the ampwhere the power cord is soldered, There are 3 terminals under the power transformer; Looking for the rear of the organ the terminal on the left has a gray wire soldered to it; the next 2 are for the power connection; I know it's AC and I know this was built before the days of polarized plugs; but does it matter what terminal the black and white wires(power cord) are soldered to? The schematic does not show it.</p>


        I can't think of anything else to add.</p>


        Your thoughts.....</p>

        [/quote]</p>

        It doesn't matter which way you wire the 2 ac wires as the old plugs could be inserted either way. One way just produced more hum as the polarity was out so all you had to do is reverse the plug which you can't do with new types. White is usually ground if you're using polarized plug.
        </p>
        Hammonds: A; AB; B3; D; E; 6-M3's; 2-A100; T582C.
        Leslies: 3-31H; 21H, 22H, 4-44W; 46W; 25; 47; 45; 125; 50C; 51; 55C; 2-120; 122; 122A; 145; 147; 245; 770; 825; 2-102; 2-103; 300.
        Wicks 2/5 pipe organ; Yamaha upright; Kurzweil Micro Piano & Micro B with M-Audio Oxygen 61; Yamaha DGX520; Wurlitzer 4100 (it came with a Leslie!). Peavey KB100 keyboard amp. Peavey Bass Guitar. Yes, I have A. D. (acquisition disorder) and don't want it cured.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: M-3 smoking



          Additional New Information;</P>


          After checking the wiring I found the BLUE WIREon the start switch loose in the switch terminal. So I re soldered it; hit the start </P>


          switch; heard a sound LIKE the start motor (on right) was trying to start; like some thing was engaging but the start motor; it had VERY LITTLE torque; I spun </P>


          the flywheelby the synchronous motor and hit the run switch (this was not a smart thing to do was it?) and got a small warm (brown light </P>


          (flash) from the sync motor housing. If looking at the Scanner/Motor assembly from the TG (perpendicular) the flash was at the 2:30 or so clock position in </P>


          the scanner drum.So Now I think what initially happened was the Blue wire having a poor connection drew a lot of amps, got hot the connection overheated </P>


          and melted the solder in the joint; the excess amount of amps went through and cooked some thing in the motorcircuits. </P>


          So now somethingfried in the Vibrato Scanner drum; probably the sync motor, and the start motor is probably toast as well; opinions? </P>


          I mean opinions about the organ's condition; not opinions about my stupid poking around back there. That part I know. </P>


          Good thing I'm picking up another M-3 (parts source) this weekend!</P>

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: M-3 smoking



            DUN dun duhhhh .... (dramatic reverb....)</P>


            </P>


            Hope you get it worked out. That sucks eggwater man.</P>


            Fd ....</P>

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: M-3 smoking



              Y'know, there is the very distinct possibility that the run motor was just ready to die anyway. I've owned and operated my own industrial equipement repair facility for nearly 15 years (RIP "Service Depot" .. we close her down this June ... the economy finally killed it). I've found many times in the past that replacing some things can cause a domino affect and start taking out other parts along the line. This has happened to us hundreds of times .. no kidding. We used to be the authorized service and warranty center for several power tool makers (Makita, Black and Decker, DeWalt, Milwaukee, and a number of others). And I cannot even remember how many times replacing something as mundane as the power cord results in replacing the main switch, and sometimes the motor as well. A fella brings in his Skillsaw and at the first look he thinks he needs "just the brushes". Well, after brushes, bearings, a new trigger and a power cors (and $60) then it was right.</P>


              So my point is that there is a good chance you did nothing *wrong* other than begin working on 50+ yr old electrical circuits. There doesn't always need to be a *reason* or *blame* to be tossed around ... sometimes parts just quit. A 50 year old motor won't tolerate much in the manner of "browning out" or *low volting* before it gives it up. You'd think the line fuse would go if it was pulling that much current. Perhaos you can put one in (right between the switch and the run motor, so even if the contacts on the switch go kaflooey the motor will open the fuse as the voltage goes down and the currnet goes to the moon).</P>


              A note on fuses: Use the highest VOLTAGE fuse you can find. Fuse voltage ratings have zero to do with how much current they will pass before burning open. The voltage rating is there to "guarantee" that the fuse will blow open with enough air-gap in the open to prevent voltage from jumping the air gap. IE: A 250v/3 amp fuse still blows above 3 amps (no matter the voltage), however the 250 volt fuse will blow open wide enough to prevent a maximum of 250 volts from jumping the failed fuse element's air gap. So I use 250 volt fuses when ever I can get them simply because they blow open nice and wide .. just a bit more assurance that the fuse will protect me and whatever device it's wired to. [:)] Also, try to find "ceramic fuses" if you can. These are not clear, but a ceramic white color. The clear type allow the element to be unsupported in the "tube" it lives in. Vibration can easily break the element inside, rendering the fuse as "failed". Ceramic fuses behave exactly the same as clear fuses, however the entire element is fully supported by this white ceramic so vibration cannot make the fuse fail. The downside is that you cannot see if the fuse is blown with your eyes. This should not matter as you should NEVER use a visual verification that a fuse is good or bad, you should ALWAYS use a meter to check a fuse. Period. A fuse can be blown in a spot where it is not visible (inside of the metal "cup" on either end of the fuse) and it may appear as though it is good, when in fact it's toast. It can also be broken (rather than burned open) inside of those metal cups too due to moving the organ/banging it around, etc. All the more reason to use 250 volt ceramics.</P>


              Fd ...</P>

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: M-3 smoking



                NEW INFO:</P>


                NEW INFO!</P>


                Youguys were right! Thank all of you for responding and lending your insight; I'm learning!</P>


                I got the parts M-3 home in several loose pieces. The amp was screwed down and the speaker was in a Peavey Combo amp housing.</P>


                When I gothome I started comparing the 2 organs; the parts M-3 is older by serial number and the woodwork is more beat-up, it's missing </P>


                the b flat on the high end of the upper register; the wires to and from the manuals and TG have been cut.</P>


                I found the A/C mains hooked up was different than mine (after I moved them)I thinkit's figuredout with y'all's help!</P>


                On the parts organ PWR Xformer wired thus;

                #1 #2 #3</P>


                TERMINAL TERMINAL TERMINAL
                A/C Blk. A/C Wt. </P>


                My PWR Xformer wired this way:</P>


                #1 #2 #3
                TERMINAL TERMINAL TERMINAL
                A/C Bk. A/C Wt.</P>


                (I left the S/R motor(s)connections out for clarity as they are the </P>


                same between the 2 organs and I hadn't messed with them)</P>


                I found the Run Switch is burned up. Replaced with donor from parts </P>


                organ. I am pretty sure I have to replace the Sync motor/vibrato unit and the start motor.</P>


                Can anyone tell WHAT ELSE I screwed up with the A/C mains being hooked up this way?

                All this AFTER Brendan told me to take pictures and write it down. </P>


                Don't I look like the village idiot?!</P>

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: M-3 smoking



                  Here's an open question for anyone....</P>


                  How do you properly connect a modern 3 wire power cord to one of these old Hammonds? Where does Hot, Neutral, and most importantly, CHASSIS GROUND connect?</P>


                  I was going to connect the ground (3rd) wire to the chassis of the TG (it's right there all handy and such next to the line terminals on an A102) but before I did I measured the open circuit voltage from the 3rd wire to the TG chassis .. read over 67 volts. Yikes. Right now I don't have the 3rd wire connected to anything (wired per old specs) but I am not comfy with that at all!</P>


                  So what IS the best way to connect up modern house current to these old Hammonds? And why have I got 67 volts ocv from the TG chassis to "Earth" ground?</P>


                  We just picked up my wife's M3 this weekend ... so this info is pertinent to us for both the A102 and her M3 as well.</P>


                  Thx ... Fd ..</P>

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: M-3 smoking



                    So far as I have been able to acertain you don't hook up a ground on stuff this old. Hammonds were designed for a "floating ground". Ask here or at www.tonewheelgeneral.com; I'm sure you'll get a more techy answer but the bottom line is to leave it alone; otherwise your Hammond won't work or you'll get shocked. DO replace the power cord; I read that Tonewheel generator organs can pull 20 amps on start; but the only cord you're going to find commercially with that rate is ORANGE or YELLOW. Black or Brown cords only go to 15 amps. Have fun and keep smiling!</P>
                    <P mce_keep="true"></P>

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: M-3 smoking



                      You can get any size and length of power cord at Home Depot (or the like). You want to ask for "SO cord" Power cords come in different grades, SJ, SO, OR, etc ... SO cord is rated for use around hydrocarbon solvents (gasoline, carb cleaner, oil, paint thinners, etc ..) and IS BLACK [:)]</P>


                      IE:, 14/3 is 14 guage wire/3 conductor. So you want something like 14/3 SO cord. 14 guage is fine for 20 amps as long as you keep the cord short, like under 15 feet. 80% of all power tool failures are due to undersized/overlong extension cords that can't handle the current. If you want a big long cord, go up to 12 guage cord. Still can get it in black ... just go for the SO cord again. I used that stuff for everything from welding machines (drawing two hundred amps from the wall all day long) to generators.</P>


                      Anyhow, Home Depot, or Lowes or your local electrical supply house will have SO cord. If no SO, then SJ is a good second choise. Still way available in black also. Of course you'll have to install a plug on the end of it yourself. If you're not up for that, if you live in a bigger city go to your local power tool repair center and just buy a 3 conductor replacement power cord for something like a big angle grinder or heavy duty belt sander, or air compressor. Still in black. [:)]</P>


                      Hope this helped ... </P>

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: M-3 smoking



                        <FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3>Helped me anyway, Farmster.</FONT></P>


                        <FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3>SO... does it still have anything to do with Peter Gabriel??</FONT></P>


                        Sorry about swamping you with emails the other day, BTW! Your server has probably banned me now!</P>


                        -Brendung</P>
                        <P mce_keep="true"></P>
                        -1958 Hofner 550 archtop guitar -1959 C3 and PR40- -1964 Busillachio Harmonium- -1964 M101-
                        -1967ish Leslie 122- -1975 T500 (modded..chopped, and reassembled!)-
                        -DIY 760 FrankenLeslie/rat hideout-
                        -1980 Electrokey Electric Piano- -Yamaha electric Harmonium (early 80's?)-
                        -1990 Jansen GMF150 amp- -1992 Korg 01W/fd- -1992 G&L S-500 geetar.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: M-3 smoking

                          [quote user="dna9656"]

                          NEW INFO:</p>

                          NEW INFO!</p>

                           Youguys were right! Thank all of you for responding and lending your insight; I'm learning!</p>

                          I got the parts M-3 home in several loose pieces. The amp was screwed down and the speaker was in a Peavey Combo amp housing.</p>

                          When I gothome I started comparing the 2 organs; the parts M-3 is older by serial number and the woodwork is more beat-up, it's missing </p>

                          the b flat on the high end of the upper register; the wires to and from the manuals and TG have been cut.</p>

                           I found the A/C mains hooked up was different than mine (after I moved them) I think it's figured out with y'all's help!</p>

                           On the parts organ PWR Xformer wired thus;
                           
                               #1                #2              #3</p>

                           TERMINAL   TERMINAL  TERMINAL
                             A/C Blk.       A/C Wt.     </p>

                           My PWR Xformer wired this way:</p>

                                 #1                 #2                    #3
                            TERMINAL     TERMINAL       TERMINAL
                                                   A/C Bk.           A/C Wt.</p>

                          (I left the S/R motor(s)connections out for clarity as they are the </p>

                          same between the 2 organs and I hadn't messed with them)</p>

                          I found the Run Switch is burned up. Replaced with donor from parts </p>

                          organ. I am pretty sure I have to replace the Sync motor/vibrato unit and the start motor.</p>

                            Can anyone tell  WHAT ELSE I screwed up with the A/C mains being hooked up this way?
                           
                            All this AFTER Brendan told me to take pictures and write it down. </p>

                            Don't I look like the village idiot?!</p>

                          [/quote]</p>

                           </p>

                          I almost bought that M-3, but someone beat me to it! I wonder who.... ;) </p>

                          Comment

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