Re-discovering my love of playing

[Tim5000]

Hi everyone,
New member from the UK here.
I currently have a Yamaha HS-5 that I've owned for at least 25 years (maybe more).
I used to play when I was 12-16 in which time I got to grade 6, so was quite reasonable in my ability.

Life, college and the like took over which meant I ended up playing less and less.
I always kept the organ and dabble but I'd never really got back to spending the time I ought to on it.

Fast forward another 22 years and I'm starting to rediscover my enjoyment in playing more and more again.
Unfortunately one pedal has broken - it looks like the usual washer problem.
Now I *could* fix that for a few pounds...but I've decided I'd like to treat myself to something nice and modern.

So I started looking solely at Yamaha and saw the EL-90 which looks like a nice cheap upgrade, then I saw the EL900 (and EL900m) which are quite a step up price wise.
I could stretch to about 2K but they are still rather old.
It's a shame that there isn't anything remotely affordable by them that I could find that's really up to date.
I did also look at the AR100 which looks like a nice unit but I prefer the open configuration rather than the speaker box being enclosed - mostly because on top of the pedal board is the only place I have for storing my books!
I've not really researched others so I'd like some inspiration please, as I've been out of the loop for so long.

My preferred pieces are usually more pop music/easy listening. I enjoy playing some of the orchestral classics too - a bit of everything! I'm' a bit of a rocker at heart so I also like to take guitar tabs and plonk that down and play away.
And in terms of features I'm interested in much better sound quality, improved interfaces such as midi/PC connectivity as I want to start recording myself and...well...just having fun really!

I should also note that capacitor/electronic problems of a older organ wouldn't be a problem as I'm in the electronics field, so if the best units really are older then that's OK. In fact I love repairing stuff so a cheap slightly faulty one would probably end up being even better!

Regards, and thanks for any advice!

[myorgan]

Unfortunately one pedal has broken - it looks like the usual washer problem.
Now I *could* fix that for a few pounds...but I've decided I'd like to treat myself to something nice and modern.

Welcome to the Forum, Tim. I hope you continue contributing here as you progress.

One of the most respected members of the Forum actually lives in the UK and used to design home organs. Andyg (https://www.organforum.com/forums/me...hp?29953-andyg) used to DESIGN home organs, and IMHO my go-to person whenever I have a home organ question. I do know people speak well of Technics, even though they're not being made any more. Andy used to work for Kawai, so I think those would be recommended as well.

May I also recommend you do what it takes to keep your "first love" going. I still have the first organ I purchased in high school (Lowrey DSO-1). While it does require tender care, it also brings back some great memories of a time in my life when I was a less encumbered with the cares and concerns of life than I am today. Playing that organ takes me back. Of course, everyone is different, but....

Again, welcome to the Forum!

Michael

[orgfred65]

Hi Tim,
I recently picked up an EL500 from eBay for £155. I am also an electronic engineer, and spent many years repairing computers at work, and repairing DJ kit for a local retailer so quite happy buying older and potentially 'risky' kit. But the EL500 turned out to be totally perfect, and all I have done is replace the floppy drive with a USB flash type. I had an EL70 for a few months before seeing the EL500, and although was happy with the EL70, I have found the EL500 to be a major upgrade. So I'd strongly recommend getting something from the newer series rather than getting an EL90. I gather that the AR80/100 has advantages and disadvantages compared to the EL series, but you can get an AR80 for £120 on eBay at the moment, although it sounds like it needs some work doing which I guess is likely to be aged cap problems. I imagine that would be a good alternative to an EL90 as well. Incidentally it only took a couple of days to sell the EL70 that I had, so if you buy something at a good price and find it is not for you, you can sell it on and try something else.

Cheers

[Tim5000]

Thanks for the comments so far.
I've been browsing the last couple of days which has been really useful. I've seen Andy's comments and visited his webpage already - hopefully he'll have some good ideas!
I'd be happy to keep the HS-5 going (it's actually my 3rd organ after an old hammond and another one I can't remember), but I have no possibility of keeping 2 organs due to space. So in that sense I'd rather going for something newer.

The AR80/100 again looks interesting but it would leave me nowhere to keep my books stacked up (which I currently store on the pedal board) so I will keep them in mind but I think my preference is maintain the more portable format for now unless an obvious choice pops up.

Tim

[seamaster]

What about one of the smaller recent Rolands, like the AT-100? Much more up to date than the Yamahas you're looking at and has the same "open" design you want. I think you'd be able get one of those used within your budget.



Alternatively, how about a Ringway RS600? Similar design, and they are just £2K new. Changing hands for well short of half that used.

[andyg]

There's no doubt that the '00' Yamahas were a good step forward from the previous range. IIRC, the EL500 was better than the EL70 and the EL700 was better than the EL90.

I rather like the AR80 and AR100, though once you've played the AR100, the AR80 will always feel rather lacking. It all depends on how much you like real organ sounds, as that's where the AR100 beats the EL series hands down. You get Jazz 'Hammond', theatre, classical and 'standard' EL Yamaha types and you have the 'touch drawbars' which are much easier to use than the on-screen variety.

The EL series will win on most of the orchestral and solo sounds, though there's sometimes not that much between them.

Having space for music can be an issue - I have two cupboards, a storage unit and most of my understairs storage space devoted to music - and there's some in the AT900's bench for good measure! Putting it on the pedal section of the organ would not be my first choice, but if that's the only place, then so be it!

The smaller Rolands have a superb sound, but are harder to drive on the fly, quite a lot of button pushing coupled with a tiny LCD display screen. The big Ringways have a great sound when set up well, but I'm not convinced by the smaller ones. You get what you pay for and while the prices are incredibly good value, I can hear corners cut in the sounds. But then again, I am very picky! :)

[RogerM]

I’ve had an AR100 for two months now, having changed from an EL90. Some say the orchestral voices are inferior to the EL but this is a matter of opinion. I have detected differences but there’s not much in it. They are sampled sounds after all and so should be pretty authentic. Not every oboe, for example, sounds identical and some variation between one and another is surely to be expected. The organ voices are great and the flute touch sliders are much easier to use than the on-screen drawbars of the EL. The split lower keyboard will be a valuable new feature for me. The EL disk recorder could record and play back the lead voice separately from the upper voices which was useful for adding “twiddly bits” to some pieces, such as James Last’s “Mornings at Seven”. I can’t so far see that the AR can do this but the split keyboard may go some way to making up for this.

I shall miss the touch sensitive pedalboard of the EL, especially for timpani roll. Even when transferred to the lower keyboard there is no touch sensitivity on the pedal voices. A surprise is the banjo, which seems to offer only a repeating sound. Surely it is normal for single banjo notes to be played, with a repeating banjo as a separate, even add-on, voice?

Ensemble buttons on the AR to bring in/cut out voice sections, absent on the EL, have proven much better than having to zero all unwanted voices. Having controls such as transpose available from panel buttons rather than on-screen is a useful bonus.

The AR’s rhythm/style section is a big improvement on the EL’s relatively basic rhythm unit. The ability to cut out and change the eight accompaniment parts is superb and, once (if) I develop the necessary skills to use it properly, will add to my enjoyment of this instrument. The in-built styles are very much to my taste; I think that might be an age thing! The registration menus offer from the panel what required floppy disks on the EL, so much more convenient. The AR is easier drive than the EL.

All in all, I am very happy and on balance think I made the right decision in changing from EL to AR. In the right hands (possibly not mine!) this organ is capable of offering superb sounds in all departments. Having said that, I am an ungifted amateur playing purely for my own enjoyment after a good many years absence from the music scene, so you should give serious consideration to andyg’s views; he has played both instruments in concert.

Both are knocking on a bit in years now (EL90 launched 1990, AR100 1996) but so far as I know only the EL is suffering on a regular basis from failed capacitors. The AR’s biggest claim to fame is the fading of the gold lettering on the wood-finish panels which, although it doesn’t affect the playing, does spoil the appearance and affects the value quite considerably. I was fortunate to get one in showroom condition but I had to pay a premium price for it (from a dealer, with two-year guarantee.) I get the impression that the EL was more robustly built (caps excepted) than the AR on which savings were made to meet the budget for a home organ, e.g. key quality and pedal sensitivity.

I profess to know nothing about the technical side of things save what I have picked up on this forum, so if anyone wants to take issue with anything I have said, feel free. Hope it helps.

[RogerM]

I know there are quite a few YouTube items featuring the AR but does anyone know of any commercial recordings on the AR? There are plenty of EL CDs but I haven’t found any AR.

[Tim5000]

Many thanks for all the messages - they are really helpful and I'm learning a lot.

The Ringway and Rolands both look great, but part of me is still going "get what you know - get a Yamaha"
But the RS600/RS620 seems to be the main contender - that may be again because it's the closest to the Yamaha though.

The Rolands seem to have a couple of drawbacks in that:
* It doesn't seem to have a full dust cover for the keyboards like the Ringway/Yamaha. I could solve this quite easily except it's in the living room and I already find it getting used as a shelf for "things"....
* I like a big music stand (i.e. full width) as I quite often have a few books open during a session.
* Only the bigger models have the toys (screen etc) that the big kid in me wants to play with!

The Ringway (I think I've seen this is actually Orla owned/or derived from Orla?) seems to be very similar to the ELx00's in terms of features - I just wonder if the sound quality is as good.
But certainly for value for money they are looking quite strong.

I've been looking at the AR100s again and I think they aren't the one for me.
I like the look of it (I like the look of all of them mentioned) and I like the roll cover, but again the closed format would just be difficult for me at the moment.
A couple of the songs I like to play are "A Whiter Shade of Pale" and "Pomp and Circumstance" - I imagine that would do a better job on those than the others, but I am just a home player so I probably any of the organs listed would be a good upgrade on what I have.
I also get the feeling the Ringway and the EL range would be better compromises for more general playing.

Does anyone know how easy it is to get hold of the upgrade kits for the Yamaha and Ringway? RS600 to 620 or EL-900 to EL-900M - that would be nice to know I have the option of that in the future.
The same as well for registrations/sound packs etc
I do quite like to "buy once" when I buy things, and although with the organ it would be nice to go through a range of models I'm not sure I could persuade the family members the same thing!

I think the big problem is the lack of change to really try any out - I'm quite close to Cambridge and have used Millers Music in the past (we used to know a guy there). Sadly there's little choice to be had these days.

Many thanks.

[Seahog]

You seem to have fixed on what you call an "open" format instrument so that you can store your music on the pedal box. Just a thought, would it not be possible to sit a magazine rack under the organ bench, or use an organ bench with under seat storage and then you have opened up the possibility of widening your choice?

If you could go that route then I would suggest an Orla Compact Theatre organ as a possibility, particlarly as it is a fairly small instrument and I surmise that you have space constraints.

in my opinion, and from hearing and playing both the Ringway RS600, the Orla, the Orla has by far the better sound, has more features and can be got just within your budget. Certainly you could get very nice renderings of the two songs you mentioned and I know it handles easy listening and general pop music well and has some very nice orchestral and organ voices. Spares should still be relatively easily available and, from my experience of owning the Orla, reliability seemed good. I only sold mine to upgrade to a Bohm Overture Stage and although that is a much more sophisticated organ I still sometimes have a yearning for the Orla.

[RogerM]

I have a feeling you have to go through hoops to set your own organ voicing on the Orla Ringway RS600. It has neither drawbars nor flute footage tabs, if I recall correctly, and you have to modify the presets to get what you want. That’s something I seem to remember from a YouTube demo which I can’t find at the moment. Hopefully someone will confirm or deny.

[Seahog]

Further to my earlier suggestion of an Orla Compact Theatre as an alternative to the Ringway RS600. If you go to the Orla channel on YouTube you will be able to watch and listen to extensive demos of both instruments which ably show off the various features of each instrument. As you will see the Orla does have physical organ draw bars which are absent on the Ringway. Maybe draw bars are a feature you would value, I know that I found them very useful. In the end of course you’re are the only person who can make the choice and it is true that it is getting increasingly difficult to find a store with any organs in stock so I wish you lots of luck in finding something that suits.

[RogerM]

Registration disks for the Yamaha EL series are available from Neil Blake’s Strawberry Music Ltd and John Beesley’s Bee Software. I had a good collection for my EL90 and would recommend them. Yamaha’s own performance and registration software is not easy to find any more but if you keep an eye on eBay you might strike lucky.

[Tim5000]

Hi again,
I have been reading all the comments and reading up on them - It's slow going as I've been out of the loop for so long but it's fun!
Thanks for the comments on the Orla Grand Theatre. It's another one I've been watching lots of videos on and I'm keeping in mind.
Again I'm probably wanting to play more 80's/90's pop songs than too many orchestral or Blackpool pieces.

I found Breve Music in Peterborough and popped in (as I was there for less interesting shopping reasons) - If anyone is in the area I found them to be very nice and helpful so I would recommend a visit.

They had a couple of Atelier's (80S and 500), some Orla (sport) and a Ringway RS600.
Thoughts were:
* Fiancee didn't like the Atelier's but liked the more modern look of the Ringway
* I liked both but the atelier looked more like a piece of furniture and less of something I would just want to walk up to and play. But that may be because the Ringway looks like a Yamaha.
* Build quality of the Ringway was as expected - Not bad but most likely value engineered.
* I had a little play on the Atelier's and they were rather nice in many ways but would be far too overbearing in the house. Plus with other reasons mentioned here and in the OP I think they wouldn't be acceptable.
* The Orla sport did nothing for me - the pedal board was too small and there was nothing that made me want to turn it on, so I didn't.
* The Ringway straight off felt comfortable to just turn on and go. I found the sound a bit flat but I didn't exactly do much with it and didn't crank up the volume. I expect in a home environment it would be quite acceptable after a little familiarisation.
* I couldn't use the footpedal to switch registrations on the Ringway - not sure if it's possible to do?
I did get the offer to come back with some books and have a play so that was nice.

I get the reluctant feeling that what I'm actually after is maybe something like a 2nd hand Tyros setup with pedal-board. This is something I've only just become aware of but is a whole new can of worms!
The Ringway appears to have a lot of what I want but I am concerned that I'll realise after using it more that something like the Tyros setup would have been better.
I'm also still thinking an newer Yamaha might still be a pretty safe option (capacitors aside).

Songs that I like that I've seen others play on youtube, music I have:
* Beatles
* Disney classics
* Flashdance
* Carry on my wayward son (Kansas)
* We are the Champions (Queen)
* Meatloaf/Jim Steinman
* Bon Jovi
* Most of the Kenneth Baker books I've got
* Pomp and Circumstance
* Morning Mood (Grieg)
* Largo
* Not so many pure Orchestral/Blackpool inspired songs
and...
* Three Lions - because it's coming home!

Summary
I can't find the user manual anywhere online for the RS600, and/or any information/price about the 600/620 upgrade - is that something anyone can help with please?

I need a spreadsheet to solve this!

[seamaster]

We're not fans of Tyros lash-ups on here. Most folk who've gone down that route have reverted to a pukka organ.