Worth picking up? Conn 465 Caprice (a few issues) w/ pipe speakers

[Max the Icie Owner]

Hi,

Just wondering if this is worth my while. A few weeks ago, if you will recall, I was going to take a look at a Conn 552 that was free. Around the same time I contacted someone who had a Caprice 465 with a pair of pipe speakers for $50. The plan was, get the 552, and take the speakers from the Caprice and use them with the 552. As you know, the 552 ended up having way too many issues for me to bring it home, so I contacted the gentlemen with the Caprice and told him I was no longer interested because it was contingent on the 552 purchase.

Lo and behold, he sent me an email two days ago. He's willing to give me the 465 with pipe speakers for free if I come pick it up (+/- 4.5hours). Otherwise in a few days it will be "junked out".

A few keys don't work on the organ itself, but everything else supposedly works ok (not that I trust anyone anymore), which is why I had planned to basically get the organ and part out the speakers for the 552. So, is this worth my while? Either I take it or it goes to the landfill.

If anyone has anything nice to say about that model of spinet, that might help too (repairability, etc).


Thanks,

-Max

[andyg]

Same electronics as all the larger Conns - independent tone generators come in with the 4xx series Caprices. So it makes the same lovely rich sound as the 552, just doesn't have quite so much on and in a 'lesser' cabinet. And the sets of two small pipes are worth it. I'm on the hunt for a similar pair over here but they're rare! So I'd go for it!

[robbie]

Sorry, not the same electronics as the earlier 552. The keying is done with multiplexing rather than keying transistors and really a good knowledge of digital electronics is required. Not to be attempted with little or no training and no access to an oscilloscope and of course the ability to use one competently. This is for the flute/tibia voicing the pulse tones for reed and string are still audio switched on a bus bar.

[rockinstephen]

Well, it sure is a nice looking piece. I hate the thought of something like that getting scrapped - kind of like an old car...

[jbird604]

I'd go for it. When I worked at a Conn dealer back in the late 70's, I really enjoyed playing that model. Very pretty console too, and as mentioned above, and it has the wonderful Conn generator system with independent oscillators for each pitch. The flutes in particularly are lovely, especially since they come through a built-in Leslie.

As with all older Conn organs, there may well be trouble with the vinyl keying rods on the "pulse" voices -- basically all the diapason, string, or reed tones. If the vinyl rods have become erratic, as nearly all of them did in time, you may have some notes louder or softer than others in the same stop, or even missing notes. That could in fact be why the seller thinks there are some dead keys. You might find that on the flute stops at least there are no dead keys or missing pitches, as the flutes are keyed electronically and don't use vinyl rods.

It will certainly need tuning after all these years unless the owner was diligent about getting that done regularly. But the good news is that tuning one of these is an easy job, even for the amateur. There are free tuning apps you can install on your phone, and you only need to use a small wrench to turn the nut on each pitch's coil to adjust the tuning note by note.

There is a certain "technique" to tuning these coils, as the wrench itself may affect the pitch slightly, and they hold better if you loosen them a tiny bit first then slowly tighten until the right pitch comes out. Also, the pedals are tuned separately from the main oscillator set, with a screwdriver slot for each note of the pedal scale.

Beyond tuning, there are a few pots and other controls inside that might need exercising or cleaning. And the whole thing might need a good careful vacuuming. It's always possible for any old organ to have mouse damage or water damage or whatever, but most damage is repairable with patience. If it's been kept in a clean house, as it appears to be in the ad, it may be in great shape.

The pipes do have value. Not sure they really enhance the sound of a little Conn spinet like this very much, but people do pay good money for those things. So I'd sure go pick it up and try it out. It is certainly a decent enough starter organ for you.

[musicgeek854]

Do pipe speakers sound better?

[jbird604]

The pipe speakers are controversial, as you might guess if you read some of the threads about them on this forum. Inside the pipe speaker you'll find nothing but four very ordinary 6x9" "car radio" speakers, like the ones used on the rear deck of your 1964 Chevy if you had the rear speaker option! Not exactly a high-end speaker, but decent enough. The tones from these car radio speakers are funneled into the ends of the metal pipes by some slotted and drilled baffles, so the output of the speakers if somewhat stifled, thus the pipe units are fairly inefficient as speakers.

The pipes themselves are actually "tuned" to the notes of the scale. I have checked this out myself when I had the pipes removed from my own Conn pipe speaker unit. So it's possible that the pipes do indeed "resonate" to some extent with the notes of the scale, thus producing some suggestion of multi-point sound. However, this resonating is probably quite a minor effect, and the real value of the little pipes sitting atop the speakers is in the random dispersion of the tone that happens when the sound is forced out through all the little openings and out into the atmosphere at a great many different locations in 3D space.

Sometimes you see a nice pipe speaker sell for a couple hundred dollars. I have run across a few people who have rooms full of these things all hooked up to the same organ. When Conn was selling big church organs, they did a few major installations that used large arrays of these pipe units instead of conventional speakers (except for the bass cabinets). So, you might say that there is a sort of cult following, but authentic proof that these things actually improve the sound of an organ is lacking.

[Nutball]

Any update?

[robbie]

I believe the Conn pipes was just a marketing ploy by Conn for there certainly isn't any physics to back up the marketing text. It's just utter drivel. I have a set of type 144 in the workshop that came with my 652. The 652 didn't have any purpose connectors for them so they were just dury rigged to the amplifier. The Conn 552 and 544 has crossover network to connect them to the main amp. I think by the time you reached the level of a 652 you really didn't need pretend organ pipes.

[Max the Icie Owner]

Owner was out of town until today. He's going to give me more detailed information on the issues and dimensions. Planning on getting it, just have to take the trip. Family stuff happening right now, so sometime later this week or the next I'll likely pick it up. Will report when I have more to say. :-)

[Max the Icie Owner]

Picked it up yesterday evening. In storage in the Cities until our next trip down (this trip was for a dog show so we won't have any space on the trip back up. Has plenty of issues, but I have the speakers and some original sales stuff as well. This will be one to learn how to repair on I think. From what I've gotten out of it right now, it sounds nice enough.


Thanks for your help.

[Max the Icie Owner]

My Caprice 465 is now at home with me. A friend brought it up from my storage location in the cities to Aitkin, and we took a trip out to his house today to get it from there to my house. The pipes are a pair of Model 144's. The service manual will be arriving on Tuesday. Where should I start with repairs? I'm guessing that if I list one thing at a time that one issue may be related to another which could change the diagnosis. How do you recommend I start?

















Thank you,

-Max

[Max the Icie Owner]

[jbird604]

I always start with a thorough inside cleaning. It may or may not have a lot of dust and debris inside, but it never hurts to vacuum it out and generally tidy up in there. Next I go meticulously from one board or assembly to another, re-seating every cable, connector, plug, socketed IC, or anything else that is removable. Often, just pulling a connector slightly loose and pushing it back in place will re-establish electrical contact. Do this "gently but firmly" so as not to create new problems by overly flexing any boards or creating broken solder joints. Just take it easy and handle it all with care. A bit of WD-40 on a Q-tip might need to be dabbed on any pull-off connector pin that seems stuck. Don't overdo it with that stuff though or you'll have a stinky organ.

Another thing to do in this phase is to "exercise" any pots that you can find. On a Conn there are adjustable thumbwheel pots and/or mini-screwdriver pots on various boards. The amplifier/power supply may have screw-driver slot volume controls for each channel, and there may be other such pots in the pedal voicing section by the pedal tabs. Pots are often marked with a bit of paint to show the factory setting, always a good starting point for your adjustments.

Note that the pedal notes themselves are generated by a system that uses full-size screwdriver-slot pots for the tuning. You can exercise those, but set them back where they were or else you'll have grossly disturbed the pedal tuning. They do need to be moved, because they could be sitting in dead spots, but you'll have to do the final adjusting when you tune the organ.

Conns of this era have several keying rods under each manual with several contact wires per key, so you might want to gently blow the dust out of that area after first gently vacuuming without letting the vacuum tools touch any of the wires or rods. Don't want to bend any of those.

Then I'd tune it before seriously trying to do any tonal work. It may well be very sour, if the original owner didn't have it done now and then. Use a phone app such as ClearTune and a small preferably non-magnetic open-end wrench that fits the little nuts on the generator coils. Be sure that "Chorus" is "OFF" before you start, so you will have the ability to turn it on and produce a celeste-like scale.

The proper tuning method is to loosen the nut a bit (less that 1/4 turn), then tighten down as you watch the tuning meter until the pitch is just right. If your wrench is not fully non-magnetic, it will affect the tuning by its presence, so you'll have to develop a system of turning the nut a tiny bit, lifting the wrench away, checking the tuning, and then tightening some more. The pedals are tuned as described in the service manual -- possibly adjusting the Master pot first, then trimming each note with its own pot.

After performing all these procedures, which amount to "routine maintenance," you can start to figure out what might be wrong with it, and approach the problems one at a time. You may find that nearly all the problems have disappeared though, once you do the maintenance.

[Max the Icie Owner]

Before I finish the initial maintenance I need to ask a question.


Today I cleaned it as suggested and reseated what I could (multi-pin plastic connectors were what I found mostly). Definitely has been a while since it has been gone over. Only a few connectors were actually easy to loosen and tighten. Most were pretty stiff and stuck down. I didn't use the WD-40 on everything though keeping in mind what you said. :-) Lots of dust and cobwebs.

Everything has been cleaned/reseated except the leslie speaker section. I have not gotten to that yet. But everything else I could find in the top section, below each of the two manuals, and in the back has been tidied up.

Pictures of each section before cleaning (no after pictures as there's no difference except no cobwebs and not as much dust).












I put everything back together and turned it on. Now it's doing exactly what the 652 I encountered two years ago did. After around five seconds of being powered on, it sounds like all of the upper flutes are having a large cipher (I think that's what it's called?), as if every key is pressed down, and is not affected by tabs or anything except cutting the power. Only on the flute stops from what I can tell, as I can still play the pulse and percussion voices though they are drowned out. The lower flutes and pedals do not seem to be affected. This did not occur before opening the organ up, reseating connectors, light vacuuming, and cleaning out the dust with a slightly damp cloth (not used on the components or the boards though). Wondering what I messed up.

This will make the subsequent tuning impossible. Should I continue with the Leslie section first before tackling this?


Thanks,

-Max

[jbird604]

You have somehow dislodged the "snubbing" voltage that goes to the flute keyer boards to keep all the notes silenced until they are keyed. Check all the little wires that push on with individual connectors at the sides of each flute keyer board (underneath the manuals when they are pulled upward).

[Max the Icie Owner]

Thanks, I'll take a look at that.

[Max the Icie Owner]

Some stuff I noticed (not sure if this is normal or not):

- Splattering of brown glue over a many of the circuit boards
- Occasional wires that looked like they'd been snipped off. (center black ones in this photo)



- What I assume are the vinyl rods, on the lower manual some of the pins (thin metal wires) are a row above where the rest are - wondering if this might have been something I did accidentally? As you can see in this picture, some of the pins that I think should be in the bottom row are with other pins in the third row instead. Wondering if this might have something to do with the cipher I mention below even though these are on the lower manual.

[jbird604]

Your images don't show up for me, but yes, if some of the contacts got up on top of a rod instead of underneath, that's a problem. They should all look uniform in a row.

[Max the Icie Owner]

I did the same for all of them. However I can't edit the posts anymore. I can try to post below this with the missing pictures. I get that sometimes in the threads too.

[jbird604]

Try to post them again below. If I can see the keying rods, maybe I can advise you. I'm guessing that if some of the contact wires are displaced, that could well be the cause of the ciphering flute keyers, if they have gotten onto a flute rod by mistake.

[Max the Icie Owner]

I was gone over the weekend and came down with a nasty bug, so I've only now uploaded the pictures.

[Max the Icie Owner]

Snipped wires in center.





Also, I presume that I should leave these be, that the brown stuff should be there?

[jbird604]

Yes and yes. There is definitely something amiss about the contact wires. They should be perfectly uniform. Some of them may have gotten on the wrong side of the keying rod, which could provoke all manner of problems.

And yes, the brown stuff is probably put there to hold the key springs in place and keep them quiet. No need to remove it.

[twnelson]

The 'brown stuff' is Door-Ease, a stick lubricant readily available at most hardware stores. It does indeed keep the key springs from 'clicking' as the keys move. If they do, just remove the spring, rub the lube on the underside, then reinstall it. Blessed silence.

[Max the Icie Owner]

Good to know. Thanks twnelson.