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Unlocking the Yamaha E70

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  • Originally posted by keyman2 View Post
    I gather most users have the idea to be able to 'enhance' without affecting the default features? It looks like David is leaning to do something more like on the Korg MS-20, where you have a side patch pane? If that's the approach/inspiration, it's at least a compromise that does not do away with the rest of the E-70 (E-50 etc.)

    It would be idea to find 'dead' E-series or D-85 organs and scavenge them for the related CS style filters/vca's and (only one) analog VCO in the D-85 which also has analog delay/chorus (BBD) chips... either way, it's a bit of work and more of a hobbyist approach. More ambitious people have idea's of creating Arduino/PIC based retrofits that do away with the need to rely on the Yamaha digital engine...that would be the best of both worlds.

    Otherwise, unless you have a specific reason for wanting to use the older CS style analog circuits, or happen to have the adaptable organs, the newer & re-issued hardware is allowing a very practical opportunity to have the analog/modular experience without having to go through the time and related expense - definitely a 'labor of love' for lack of a better expression... ; )
    Oh, ok. Carry on then. :)
    1962 A102 - Marshall powered 1965 Leslie 251 - 1955 M3 that is for sale
    Emerson-Smith-Dennerlein-Jobson-Walsh-(Jon) Lord enthusiast and typical rock-hack player.

    Comment


    • Yup I do want to keep the organ as intact as possible. But finding a scrap unit would be great cause I suppose a second board could be connected, maybe even one from an earlier model with an analog oscillator. Beause yes, right Keyman an additional VCO oscillator is only a single voice - kinda forgot that for a while in all the excitement. It would still even be fun to try putting one more VCO in there. I suppose it could be made to always track the top note like on the D-85, somehow.

      Originally posted by keyman2 View Post
      Otherwise, it works by the sync'd VCO being reset whenever it receives a trigger from the reference VCO...
      Excellent yes.

      I looked at the Celeste to see if I could imagine how to widen the offset but didn't get a clear idea yet.

      So the Glide feature looks fairly simple as a possible mod'n as there is that Glide clock on the lower right of that clock page (pg 11) in the manual. Taking that further, maybe somehow disabling the vibrato all together inside the vibrato circuit would simply provide another voice of sorts? It seems with all the Vibrato this and vibrato that in the schematics that there is almost a whole separate voice that's used only with that effect. Dang I can't find my magnifying glass to read the schematics!

      Originally posted by M3me View Post
      simply use a VCA as a controller that modulates the voltages of the E-70 systems, then modulate the VCA with some other modulator. That way you're never introducing "foreign" electrical signals into the E-70's systems. All you'd be doing is modulating the E-70's own CVs with a VCA .. exactly like using a simple pot to goof with the CVs of the E-70 .. except the "pot" is a VCA that would be controlled by other modulation sources (such as other makes of LFOs, or EGs, and so on). A simple buffered mixer could be used to route (even complete "voices") through a Ring Mod. A few patchcords and it's a done deal.
      <img src="http://imageshack.us/a/img543/7462/e50panel.gif" align=right style="border:1px solid black;width:300px;margin-left:20px;">Okay that makes a lot of sense using a VCA essentially as a buffer against blowing up something in the organ. So those are all control voltages that are being adjusted by the SoGX pots... very interesting. This is where the Arduino might come in as it has stacks of inputs and outputs and could do all sorts of funky things from modulations to settings memories.

      Each of the 4 filter controls on the panel design have a 2P6T rotary selector switch under them, to allow switching from the slide pots to other sources of modulation that would be connected internally, or perhaps by jacks on the upper left front panel by the VCO/LFOs. Thinking now perhaps it would be better if it could optionally combine the pot value with a modulating signal.

      Originally posted by keyman2 View Post
      Cool! Guess what I just downloaded... : )
      Amazing isn't it, the resources available today
      Mark Sutin

      Comment


      • By the way, this little guy is up for sale on ebay...<a href="http://www.ebay.com/itm/YAMAHA-EX-42-VINTAGE-ANALOG-SYNTHESIZER-ORGAN-KEYBOARD-SYNTH-gx-1-gx1-cs-80-cs80-/271201045985" target="http://www.ebay.com/itm/YAMAHA-EX-42-VINTAGE-ANALOG-SYNTHESIZER-ORGAN-KEYBOARD-SYNTH-gx-1-gx1-cs-80-cs80-/271201045985"><img align=center src="http://antiquitymusic.com/store/image/cache/data/Yamaha%20EX-42/IMG_7536-800x600.JPG"></A>
        Mark Sutin

        Comment


        • I keep saying it, and I'll continue to repeat it ..

          This is the Golden Age of Audio Electronics.

          The EX-1 is a bargain at $8900 plus shipping. There are a lot of Hammomds that sell for a lot more than that out there.

          There's an FX-1 that only has 16 hours to go, it's at FIVE dollars right now .... FIVE DOLLARS. I'm watching it just to see what it gets up to.

          http://www.ebay.com/itm/YAMAHA-FX-1-...#ht_509wt_1357
          1962 A102 - Marshall powered 1965 Leslie 251 - 1955 M3 that is for sale
          Emerson-Smith-Dennerlein-Jobson-Walsh-(Jon) Lord enthusiast and typical rock-hack player.

          Comment


          • That's a scam! Do not bid!

            Geo

            Comment


            • Originally posted by geoelectro View Post
              That's a scam! Do not bid!

              Geo
              Learned that with a related CS-80...the minute they tell you to email them that way, it's certain to be a Phishing scheme...

              Comment


              • Mseven, if you use a musical top-octave style divider, which generates all the semitones versus the basic built-in octave dividers (chain of divide by 2 - basic flip-flop) currently on the E-series, you could do proper intervals like 5th's, 7th's etc. The only thing is to have it work at the related frequencies required to drive the Waveform-Roms.

                The glide does a related frequency sweep, but you can't control the interval, just the time - maybe stick the divider in there?

                Otherwise, it's amazing how Yamaha came up with all these specialized function chips - must have been a very interesting design process.

                Nowadays, the Arduino & PIC open up a sorts of possibilities...

                Comment


                • Sounding pretty interesting (and maybe complicated!) You sure know this stuff. Let me see if I've got this...

                  So you're thinking an additional (built or repurposed) triggering mechanism can be added to drive the existing Waveform-Roms. And different intervals could be sounded upon the same keypress. That sounds pretty cool. And that would certainly be a great way to put the Arduino to work.

                  And are you saying the Glide function of the chip brings the audio signal down by an interval that can't be changed... and that only the duration of the effect can be changed? Well you are, I guess, but that's certainly too bad - I had dismissed the Vibrato Generator IC would be programmed that way. But looking again at the UG Clock - that's for timing only (maybe that's why they call it a clock), and there doesn't appear to be an interval adjustment control anywhere. Dang. So when you say a divider, are you referring to dividing the output audio signal frequency activate by Glide to get say, 1/10 of the interval?

                  Regarding designing these units? I can't imagine.

                  Ah I did get the faceplate sketchup off to the CNC.. hoping for a positive response

                  Originally posted by keyman2 View Post
                  Mseven, if you use a musical top-octave style divider, which generates all the semitones versus the basic built-in octave dividers (chain of divide by 2 - basic flip-flop) currently on the E-series, you could do proper intervals like 5th's, 7th's etc. The only thing is to have it work at the related frequencies required to drive the Waveform-Roms.

                  The glide does a related frequency sweep, but you can't control the interval, just the time - maybe stick the divider in there?

                  Otherwise, it's amazing how Yamaha came up with all these specialized function chips - must have been a very interesting design process.

                  Nowadays, the Arduino & PIC open up a sorts of possibilities...
                  Mark Sutin

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by geoelectro View Post
                    That's a scam! Do not bid!

                    Geo
                    Some fool "bought" it for $152 + shipping. He'll paypal the money and it will never show up, and the seller will just evaporate until they pop up again under another name.

                    The same scam was being played with an Alesis Andromeda for a while.
                    1962 A102 - Marshall powered 1965 Leslie 251 - 1955 M3 that is for sale
                    Emerson-Smith-Dennerlein-Jobson-Walsh-(Jon) Lord enthusiast and typical rock-hack player.

                    Comment


                    • I just realized one Arduino board can run all the modulation ever needed - wide frequency range no problem. Running 3, 4 or 5 separate oscialltors at once at all different frequencies, all different waves, adding waves, etc - no problem. That's my route.

                      > "Some fool "bought" it for $152 + shipping. He'll paypal the money and it will never show up, and the seller will just evaporate until they pop up again under another name."

                      You can always begin the Paypal refund thing.
                      Mark Sutin

                      Comment


                      • Just general observations & suggestions, I haven't looked at the related diagrams in detail that way, but may work or at least inspire related ideas... I think the basic technical details are correct - the divider would go on the clock driving the roms - again, in theory.

                        It wasn't my idea to use PIC/Arduino's to replace the digital engine - a bit of a mega-project, but I'm sure there are enough bright enthusiasts that would be able to engineer that sort of thing - I wouldn't be that concerned to go that far, it's almost like one of those thesis type projects.

                        Good luck with the panel, that should get you going a good part of the way toward another amazing modified E-70....

                        Originally posted by mseven View Post
                        Sounding pretty interesting (and maybe complicated!) You sure know this stuff. Let me see if I've got this...

                        So you're thinking an additional (built or repurposed) triggering mechanism can be added to drive the existing Waveform-Roms. And different intervals could be sounded upon the same keypress. That sounds pretty cool. And that would certainly be a great way to put the Arduino to work.

                        And are you saying the Glide function of the chip brings the audio signal down by an interval that can't be changed... and that only the duration of the effect can be changed? Well you are, I guess, but that's certainly too bad - I had dismissed the Vibrato Generator IC would be programmed that way. But looking again at the UG Clock - that's for timing only (maybe that's why they call it a clock), and there doesn't appear to be an interval adjustment control anywhere. Dang. So when you say a divider, are you referring to dividing the output audio signal frequency activate by Glide to get say, 1/10 of the interval?

                        Regarding designing these units? I can't imagine.

                        Ah I did get the faceplate sketchup off to the CNC.. hoping for a positive response
                        - - - Updated - - -

                        usually these things get cancelled in due time, meanwhile the people that emailed are not so lucky...

                        Originally posted by mseven View Post
                        I just realized one Arduino board can run all the modulation ever needed - wide frequency range no problem. Running 3, 4 or 5 separate oscialltors at once at all different frequencies, all different waves, adding waves, etc - no problem. That's my route.

                        > "Some fool "bought" it for $152 + shipping. He'll paypal the money and it will never show up, and the seller will just evaporate until they pop up again under another name."

                        You can always begin the Paypal refund thing.

                        Comment


                        • Yes agreed, however the Arduino could produce the proper "related frequencies required to drive the Waveform-Roms", if I inderstand the gist of that. However, that would be for later.

                          Current list of tasks:
                          1) Do Son of GX Mods. Got good feedback on the Sketchup, and looking at mid next week for a first sample cutting.
                          2) Build three or four oscillators with at least one being a hi freq for for ring modulation.
                          3) Find the earliest place in circuitry to get preamp signals

                          Originally posted by keyman2 View Post
                          Just general observations & suggestions, I haven't looked at the related diagrams in detail that way, but may work or at least inspire related ideas... I think the basic technical details are correct - the divider would go on the clock driving the roms - again, in theory.

                          It wasn't my idea to use PIC/Arduino's to replace the digital engine - a bit of a mega-project, but I'm sure there are enough bright enthusiasts that would be able to engineer that sort of thing - I wouldn't be that concerned to go that far, it's almost like one of those thesis type projects.

                          Good luck with the panel, that should get you going a good part of the way toward another amazing modified E-70....
                          Last edited by mseven; 05-08-2013, 11:06 PM.
                          Mark Sutin

                          Comment


                          • David, I missed your additional photo's the last time - that's pretty clever as far as the mechanical keyboard stacking, must have been a bit of work to do that?

                            It looks that you found the perfect nook to stick the D-85 in, or you hired a contractor to make it... ? : )

                            Tantalum capacitors have an ideal low internal resistance, closer to an ideal capacitor model, but they can short out/fail and never connect them backwards....SNAP-CRACKLE-POP! The older electrolytic capacitors, such as in the E-70 & D-85 can dry-out and lose their capacitance/filtering effect - which is why you may have a loud hum in some situations with old equipment etc.

                            As far as learning about having to use non-conductive surfaces, that one is also a quick lesson, though can create a bit of recovery time due to related issues/consequences. : (

                            I don't know if you got what you needed from the last follow-up on your power supply questions? Basically, you have a bunch of separate DC supplies created off the secondary windings of the D-85 power transformer/s. You can see the triangle or 0V or ground connection of each supply therein, to which you would secure your new/replacement supplie/s ground onto, after having removed the original supply connection from the rest of the circuitry to be powered off the new supply.

                            The attached graphic shows a split supply created from positive and negative voltage regulators (I used them for a related project). So just join this common point between the two supplies to the common ground for the D-85 +/-15V supply. If it's a single supply, just put the ground of that supply where the original supply went.

                            If you're using commercial supplies, they should be adequately heatsinked, else you have to provide that and ensure adequate cooling/ventilation and that there is no inadvertent electrical connection through the heatsinks/chassis etc.

                            Also, the supplies have to be floating and not associated back to earth ground so they don't short out when stacking them - you may have a ground on your D-85 plug so you have to be sure you don't create ground loops/shorts with added external supplies.

                            I think that covers what you wanted to know ? Otherwise, just post something back in case it's off the mark or if this is beyond/beneath your knowledge?

                            Click image for larger version

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                            Close but not quite, Ive broken and fixed those quite a few times since then :D
                            I did bridge two keyboards but did it the strictly mechanical way:
                            [ATTACH=CONFIG]9652[/ATTACH]
                            And a bad pic of it in the corner, quite a bit gone undocumented to it since then.
                            [ATTACH=CONFIG]9654[/ATTACH]
                            Currently I thought I had messed up again when changing the PSU, but was using a stupid switching supply that didnt work.
                            The problem Im facing now is that it needs a 0V for the chips (not ground, but 0V potential or whatever you call it) aaaand although I got a proper linear supply, guess what, It doesnt have ground out, so Ill have to find it on the circuit ...
                            Not doing that until Ive added a proper switch and fuse in front, but if someone clever could confirm that I can use the point before ground where both +/- 15v are grounded, or point out an alternative, that would be nice :)
                            Picture: [ATTACH=CONFIG]9653[/ATTACH]

                            Its mostly stubborn pride at this point, its been over a year, most of that looking at problems incomprehending, and I cant say I feel much smarter doing things like hunting for ONE single faulty tantalum cap (not knowing thats the problem of course) for three months. And the keyscanner ... placed the connections for the oscillator out on a metal rail, was fine really, that took a month as well.
                            And so on.
                            Even though I get there in the end, its so little to learn at a time when everything is so much over my head, buuut every time it does work, and I can patch in an LFO to the filter that I couldnt before, it is great.
                            I suspect many things sound greater, but I did it and so it is great :)
                            And Marc was the inspiration, so thanks.
                            Last edited by keyman2; 05-10-2013, 09:34 PM.

                            Comment


                            • Thanks a lot!
                              Ill have to get back to you after I absorb it and have looked at my supplies some more.
                              Ive been modding pedals a bit for practice now, but PSUs are scary things :D

                              Ill be back with pictures of the actual unit and such.
                              Thanks again for the assistance, it was on its way to the ignore for a while pile.

                              Oh, and the nook was perfect, it was teh back of my walk in closet, there is some odd rules when they build appartments that so and so much percentage has to be storage area.
                              So many put most of that in one place and then you can just remove the sliding wall and get more space if you like.
                              Being single, a small studio was better than very much room for spare shoes ;)
                              Putting spacers between the key contact boards was pretty easy actually, took just a few hours and most of that was cutting the spacers to fit, and luckily there was screws of the exact length and size needed available. I just superglued the spacers that was between the contacts and not on the actual plastic rack.

                              Comment


                              • Can I offer this up for review... <a href="http://imageshack.us/a/img13/6892/proposedpowersupplyv10.png" target="proposedpowersupply10"><img src="http://imageshack.us/a/img20/6892/proposedpowersupplyv10.png" align=right style="width:500px;margin-left:20px;"></A>

                                After snooping around, heres a composite of all the things I thought seemed ideal. One of the things that made me wonder is why sometimes the diagrams on the net have different value capacitors on top and bottom ? It seems they should be symmentrical on the top and bottom but maybe they're something else goin on?

                                This was made on the free online circuit designer http://www.circuitlab.com/
                                Mark Sutin

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