New to the forum here and, since I'm an home organ owner, I have a question about the way most organs seemed to be made a few decades ago. Why is it that most home organs were made with obsolescent parts? I have owned ( I'm not saying any brand names here) four differnt organs and all of them have had parts go out. Do organs have a specific time in which they wear out or, is this just the nature of the thing?</P>
lol JC8.... would any self-deserving business entrepenuer make an electromechnical organ to last half a century? Laurens Hammond did ;) Sure.. some of the components are prone to failure after three or four decades.. in any organ. Expect to revive such beasts from torpor ;)
Because the buying of organs is so heavily based on the builders' reputations, I would not expect any reputable builder to deliberately use inferior parts so as to promote premature obsolescence due to failure. The purchase of new instruments is generally driven by the desire (or need) to obtain improved technology or greater flexibility, not because the current organ is unplayable.</P>
All components eventually fail, and sometimes a builder will get a supply of parts that fail inordinately soon. When this is discovered, a reputable buildershould attempt to redress this problem by offering a recall (like auto makers do), or at least free replacements of the defective units.</P>
I doubt it is possible to offer a general table of failure criteria one should expect. In the field of electronic instruments it is often true that several decades after the unit is built the specific components used are not available on the open market any more; however, if there is a demand, there will be some specialty manufacturers who will continue to supply them (we buy vacuum tubes/valves from Russia). Specific proprietary elements will probably only be available from the original manufacturer, though, and this can be a difficulty if the manufacturer no longer is in business. This situation is less a problem with pipe organs because by nature much of the mechanism is hand built using age-old techniques and can be replicated.</P>
The reliability of home organs depends on age and make - combined. I will name names. Most Japanese instruments, Yamaha, Kawai, Roland etc, are and always have been very reliable, but some of them are now getting to an age where things do go wrong.</P>
Most earlier Italian instruments from makers like Gem/Galanti, Viscount, Farfisa etc are less reliable, with the real cheap stuff being c**p. Later Italian instruments were better.</P>
As for US made instruments, somewhere in the middle but it depends on the make. Earlier ones were sometimes troublesome from most makes, Baldwin, Conn, Lowrey, Gulbransen etc. Hammond tonewheels were usually very reliable, but age is tarting to count. Hammond LSI models were trouble from day 1, but quality did improve with time.</P>
The parts in organs are very much proprietary, and are only produced in sufficient quantities to cover the number of instruments built and spares/replacements for a certain period of time. I think it's 5 or 7 years after the production ceases, or something like that. After that, the manufacturer has no duty to ensure spares are available. However, most manufacturers go beyond this. </P>
Older organs often have 'bread and butter' electronics and can be fixed, even now, but there are almost always some unobtainable parts. Cannibalisation is one way of keeping an old organ going.</P>
Plus, remember that prices of used organs are so low, that you take a chance, weighing up the pleasure of playing a decent organ you've paid peanuts for, against the knowledge that if it does go wrong, it may be terminal. Of course, it it's terminal, you can go and get another one.</P>
Andy</P>
It's not what you play. It's not how you play. It's the fact that you're playing that counts.
I have a question about the way most organs seemed to be made a few decades ago. Why is it that most home organs were made with obsolescent parts?
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If you're really talking about decades -- 60's or even early 70's and before .. It isn't that "obsolete" or 'bad" parts were used. It's that they're getting old.</p>
Contrary to much popular myth, electronic parts fail. Resistors change value due to effects of time, heat and moisture. Capacitors become leaky (start acting more like resistors than capacitors). Power supply electrolytic capacitors dry out. Transistors fail. IC chips fail. Usually due to other causes, audio and power transformers fail. Other things just die for no apparent reason.</p>
Eventually the expensive brand new PipeKiller1000 electronic organ gizmo bought yesterday, made of thoroughly modern parts will suffer the same fate -- although like a PC, you may just relegate it to the trash heap before that happens, unless you're a collector of old things worth saving, of course ...</p>
Let me rephrase the question. In my current Hammond, the tabs(drwbars) are wired in such a way that thier wired directly to the part thus, the wire bends every time you push or pull the tab. And its held on by what looks to be an contector but, not soldered. From an engineering point, I feel that someone could have come up with a way not to have the wires loose and more uiniform and soldered. It just seems that when you have loose wires you're asking for trouble.</P>
I understand that things wear out. Since my organ was built in the 70's I expect wear here and there. To bad someone hasn't figure out how to shop-out some of these fine organs with newer parts and components.</P>
Let me rephrase the question. In my current Hammond, the tabs(drwbars) are wired in such a way that thier wired directly to the part thus, the wire bends every time you push or pull the tab. And its held on by what looks to be an contector but, not soldered. From an engineering point, I feel that someone could have come up with a way not to have the wires loose and more uiniform and soldered. It just seems that when you have loose wires you're asking for trouble.</p>
I understand that things wear out. Since my organ was built in the 70's I expect wear here and there. To bad someone hasn't figure out how to shop-out some of these fine organs with newer parts and components.</p>
JC.</p>
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I suspect that repair was considered in the design. In the home, it is a heck of a lot more convenient and quick to disconnect and change out a switch than it is to heat the soldering iron and do it that way, especially if the owner is breathing down your neck.</p>
As to why no one has shopped-out one of these older ones, I suspect that some individuals may have done that, but no business is going to do that on a used product that usually doesn't sell or if it does, sells for very low prices which is all too often the case with organs these days.</p>
Read "unsafe at any speed" by Ralph Nader. The late sixties and seventies were not good for quality products, especially in North America. The accountants and the MBAs were in charge of industry. The name of the game was cost reduction and profit maximization. Quality was NOT job 1, 2, or even in the top 10. They did not care how money was made, mergers, acquisisitions, diversification, all the better if you are the MBA accountant who became CEO, no need to get one's hands dirty actually making something.
Laurens Hammond, Henry Ford, Thomas Edison, etc, etc. were the guys who put their name and their reputation on their products and took pride in building something of value. The anonymous grey suits, who ended up running their companies never understood the pride of good workmanship.
Fortunately the seventies are long past, crappy electronics, disco suits, vinyl veneer and Farrah Fawcett's hair do are thankfully deposited in the dust bin of history.
The disco suits and vinyl veneer I can happilylive without, but I quite liked that hairdo, though the flashbacks in my case are to one particular girlfiend rather than Ms Majors! [:$]</P>
Andy</P>
It's not what you play. It's not how you play. It's the fact that you're playing that counts.
I don't remember anyone in the industryimplying that electronic instruments were going to be especially durable. As pointed out many of the early instruments had serious problems before even 20 years had elapsed. But I can remember as a boy that cars, appliances, furniture were clearly marketed with an eye toward replacement in the not too distant future (always with the goal of bigger and better!).</P>
By comparison, try to find a piano from the seventies and eighties that is in premium condition unless someone has invested great care and maintenance cost in it! The law of diminishing returns is a foundation of physics. Everything will wear out!</P>
To the comment of using new to rebuild -- it can't be done as a patchwork, but for those who have the means a complete rebuild is not only possible, it is becoming commonplace in the organ world. People are actively at work doing MIDI conversions with outstanding results! Is that not realistic? The instrument was a whole (the sum of the parts being greater than the parts) and should be renovated as a whole.</P>
No one would renovate a Pipe Organ by adding some new pipework to failing old systems. Use what is salvagable but keep an eye toward the whole!</P>
Here's a really good example of planned obsolescence according to C.G. Conn. This 'ol girl has well and truly danced her last Minuet. Note how the bits are falling off one by one, as is the case with single oscillator organs. Surley the player would have been much happier had the organ been an LSI Baldwin and the whole thing collapsed in one heap AFTER Sunday's congregational singing of "Whispering Hope".</P>
<SPAN></SPAN></P>
<SPAN>For those of us old enough to remember, this sad sight lends a lot of weight to the advertising blurb put out by C.G. Conn in the '70's suggesting that:</SPAN></P>
<SPAN>"There IS a Noticeable Difference in a CONN ORGAN"</SPAN></P>
Reliability - that's really the issue. If you want to make an organ and sell it and make a profit, you can't build it like the space shuttle. The designers are under pressure to make a good instrument at minimal cost. That's economics 101. Some took shortcuts that I don't agree with: For instance my old Wurlitzer digital failed due to a power supply transistor overheating and shorting. But the problem was the designer didn't put protection against that eventuality. (An inexpensive zener diode which would short and cause the fuse to blow before further damage could occur) As it was, the IC power went to 21Volts and numerous ic's were destroyed until they eventually shorted and the fuse blew. The organ became scrap.</P>
I have had several older and newer Allen organs. The older ones used standard components, conservative, carefuldesign. Many are still in use after 30+years. That's like some of my Hewlett-Packard test instruments. Like a Mac truck, 30years is just broken in. Even the Allen digitals are well made and although more complex quite serviceable. They are made to be serviced. The reliability of newer models may be different. I have a Renaissance Allen and have had quite a few problems with it plus my experiences with their customer service were not good.</P>
There is another major issue the manufacturers don't want to talk about: ROHS (Reduction of Hazardous Substances) It is the elimination of Lead from electronic devices including organs. Pipemaking is exempt since there is no substitute.Also the military, and aerospaceare exempt. That should tell you something. In soldering of electronic components, the absence of lead has led to serious problems including catastrophic failures. This is due to the substitute materials having long term problems such as surface migration leading to shorts. Also leadless solder isn't as strong and requires a higher temperature to solder. There is ongoing work to find solutions but the problems remain. </P>
Now, if you build a console with standard off the shelf components and use it to control a PC based program like Haupwerk, if the console breaks you replace the component or control and if the PC breaks you replace it (assuming you backed up the software like most of us don't do) In any eventuality, the console, amplifier and speakers are still useable once you get the new PC to work. You don't need to buy a new instrument. I believe Walker and Phoenix use generally off the shelf readily available components. </P>
Any of the best made were subject to failures or service problems. When my newHammond M100,was five years old, the rectifier tube went out, and the next thing I know the organ tansformer just fired. Why? Because Hammond was too cheap to put a fuse in so that would NOT have happened. Then you hear Hammond was suppose to be one of the best. Well, they all had their boast as crossyinoz mentioned about the Conn Organs.</P>
There was a saying about the Mighty Wurlitzer Pipe Organs, they fell too. </P>
James</P>
Baldwin Church Organ Model 48C
Baldwin Spinet 58R
Lowrey Spinet SCL
Wurlitzer 4100A
Crown Pump Organ by Geo. P. Bent, Chicago, Illinois
Organs I hope to obtain in the future:
Conn Tube Minuet or Caprice even a transistor Caprice with the color coded tabs
Gulbransen H3 or G3, or V.
Wurlitzer 44, 4410, 4420, ES Reed Models, 4300, 4500, Transistor Models
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