Never played an organ, but want to--- am i crazy?!

[tdh25k]

Hey guys, I've been lurking here for a few weeks reading some great information, but now i have a few questions of my own. First off, I've never played an organ before (other than incidental time at music shops, friends houses, etc), but play guitar, bass, some drums. Basically, I'm interested in learning a new instrument and am somewhat fascinated with vintage organs, and being that they're so cheap on craigslist- it seemed like a better choice than learning, say, the piano. I've also found it hard to get cool, honest sounding analog tones out of a midi keyboard...I mean, it's close, but just doesn't sound how I want it to.
</p>

With that said, I have a few direct questions I'd love to hear some thoughts on, should you have a moment: </p>

1. My schedule probably won't allow for much out-of-the-house lesson time, is the organ something that can be picked up thru videos and such? Or am I barking up the wrong instrument tree, per se. This endeavor will be more of a hobby than anything and I'm really just hoping to eventually become proficient...
</p>

2. With literally thousands of organ choices and almost NO information available (outside of this forum), how am I to tell if a cheapie craigslist organ is even worth my time of day? I'm most interested in the sounds of the late 60's and early 70's and am probably space-wise, limited to a spinet type organ. I see many Wurlitzers, Lowreys, Conns that are up for sale, any models to look out for?? I'm intriqued by some of the Wurli's I've seen that have the early Orbit synths...(if that helps...)
</p>

I know my questions are a bit vague, but I'd appreciate any and all feedback you may have. THANKS!!
</p>

[Jay999]

Re: Never played an organ, but want to--- am i crazy?!



Back in the 1960s, I paid my way through college, teaching adults and children how to play popular music on the spinet organ, sometimes full sized 2 manual (keyboard) organs. The course we taught from most was published by Hal Leonard Publications, Winona, Minnesota. It was called "Learning Unlimited". It was a chord method...where you learn to read the music staff for the right hand, and learn chords in the left hand by a chord symbol, printed in the music score. This kind of music notation is usually known as a "lead sheet", and you may be familiar with those from your playing other instruments. It's a popular kind of music notation used by bands, small jazz groups, and solo players. You might poke around on the internet and find this particular method. With it being almost 50 years later, I'd imagine there are other methods out there, if you do some hunting around a music teaching studio, or perhaps a sheet music store...if you live in a fairly large city. This method was offered as a "self teaching" type of method, and it was fun and rewarding for hobby level playing.</P>


Choosing an organ. Finding an older analog spinet organ that works 100% is your first challenge. Especially on e-bay, or craig's list. Most of them have some sort of problem. If you buy one through these channels, don't pay more than $250.00 for it, and that's a generous plenty for one that's in top notch condition. You will find other guys on this forum that are real fans of certain brands, and certain models of organs. I am only familiar with the Wurlitzer 4300 and 4500 series organs, and can help you with that series, as long as there is not a problem in the electronic parts...contact cleaning, speaker adjustments, etc. etc.</P>


If you find an organ that you like, and buy it...be sure to get three other guys, plus yourself, to pick it up and also unload it into your home. Or, rent a "roll or carry" organ dolly from your local music store, or private organ technician, so that two guys can handle the pick up and delivery.</P>


That's my 2 cents.....Best of luck!</P>

[tdh25k]

Re: Never played an organ, but want to--- am i crazy?!



Hi Jay, thanks for your response. I'm glad to hear that at some point, a "self teach" method existed. I'll do some more research should I go through with this as I hope to. I'd guess there's more options out there, but you never know.</p>

And hey, as luck would have it- a 4500 is up on craigslist as we speak for $500. What little I know about this stuff tells me that this is way overpriced. I was hoping to pay $100 max, or maybe a little more if it was in great shape. Based on what you say, I'd guess these babies weigh in around 500lbs?
</p>

Not a great description:
</p>

http://cincinnati.craigslist.org/msg/871912524.html</p>

Anything specifically cool that you really like about these? Know anything about a Wurli 650 Total Tone Deluxe?
</p>

Thanks again!
</p>


</p>

[andyg]

Re: Never played an organ, but want to--- am i crazy?!



650's aren't the best Wurlitzers, IMHO. They lacked the warmth of their earlier stablemates. The Tibia sound is very pure, but comes across as a bit brittle. Strings are a mushy mess, but they do mix quite well with the tibias. You have the Orbit synth and this is quite fun, the only problem being its 2 octave range. As for auto rhythm, it's appallingly bad. We called it one of the "Willie Plonk It" units back in the good old days.</p>

Put it all together in a nice piece of wood cabinet (I'm assuming that this isn't a white one) and it's a big sounding organ, but one that's a bit 'sharp' to my ears.</p>

If the price is right, then fine, but you could do better.</p>

Andy
</p>

[tdh25k]

Re: Never played an organ, but want to--- am i crazy?!



Andy, thanks for your info...you seem quite knowledgeable about just every kind of organ ever made. Yeah, the orbit synth sounds pretty cool and being a newcomer, 2 octaves might be ok. I'm not sure I'd need auto-rhythm a whole lot...
</p>

I'll keep hunting, though. I too would prefer a warmer tone...were many of these old organs tube driven?
</p>

[lparsons21]

Re: Never played an organ, but want to--- am i crazy?!



Hi, it is always a pleasure to meet someone wanting to learn the organ today.  Especially the home users, which are becoming a dying breed.</p>

In the Wurlitzers with the Orbit, I think all of them are solid state.  I had a 625T is super shape and just gave it away to a couple of young guys with a new band.  They were thrilled with it and loved the sound.  As others have said, most of these Wurlitzers with Orbits are nearly worthless in dollar value.  Don't pay any more than $100-$200 imo.</p>

There are other brands out there that are a little more expensive, but not much so.  Any fairly newer model of an organ made by a company still in business will probably be more expensive to acquire.</p>

Some brands that I would encourage you to consider are Yamaha and Technics.  Both are no longer made, with little if any support from the companies that made them.  You can get a heck of an upscale model for a pittance if you have patience.  I recently acquired a Technics SXEA5 which was one of the last spinets that Technics made.  Voicing out the wazoo and so much control.  It has the ability emulate other organs and does a very good job of it.  Especially if you hook it up to a decent stereo/surround system.  I paid $350 for it, and if I had wanted to haggle a bit more, I probably could have gotten it for less.  It originally sold for around $20K in 1995 or so.</p>

In Technics models, I would look for SXEA3, SXEA5, SXGA3 in spinets, and the SXFA1 or SXF100 in full consoles.  Just my opinion of course.</p>

I'm not a Yamaha expert, but they also made some great organs that can be had for little money.  Hopefully you'll do some searching here and other places, or maybe one of our resident experts will chime in. </p>

Tube organs have both a good and a bad side.  With a tube organ, there are good chances that if it needs many of the parts, you can find them somewhere.  The bad side is they are all very old and might really need those parts!!  And they can get expensive to fix, especially if you can't do it yourself.  If you want that old time organ sound, tube is the way to go.</p>

The key to getting lots of organ for very little money is patience, they are not increasing in value for the most part.</p>

Also if you can drive to get it, it makes it a better deal 'cause shipping is really horrible.  With most models, a pickup truck or van would be needed.  With the Technics, since they can be taken apart, a small car like a Vibe or Matrix can do the job.</p>

 </p>

[tdh25k]

Re: Never played an organ, but want to--- am i crazy?!



yeah, from the sounds of it, i'm probably "one of those young guys with a band" you described. i'm sure i'm a rarity in that i'm under 30 *and* for some odd reason, have a strong interest in playing an organ. </p>

thanks for your suggestions...i've seen a few yamahas in my now month long search, but didn't even know technics made an organ. someone was giving away a nice, working yamaha chx-1 a few weeks ago, but the thing looked WAY too big for my space. as i said, i mostly see lowrey, conn, wurlitzer, some hammonds (that are almost always very high priced), and a few kimballs that frankly, look like toys. i've seen a few other brands here and there. </p>

the hard part about being new is really describing what i "think" i want and then trying to find a match for that, and then having it be both available and cheap. i say i want that "old time" sound, but in reality, i don't know what that is. i will say that i do very much prefer playing out of a tube amp with my electric guitars and have been known to say that i hate amp emulators...
</p>

but, i'm in no real rush here, so keep the comments and suggestions coming- very much appreciated!
</p>

[lparsons21]

Re: Never played an organ, but want to--- am i crazy?!



The Technics spinet organs I mentioned actually take up less space than many of the other brands.  They are thinner so they don't stick out quite so much.  And with the emulation the models I mentioned do, you can get a lot of the other brands sound and feel.  Not perfect, but pretty darn good.</p>

And they are all from 1995-2002 I believe, so they are relatively modern and have lots of settings and controls that allow you to pretty much get anything you want from them.  And they have a sequencer built in and a floppy.  You can make new sounds if you can't find just what you want, and you can make new accompanements if you are so inclined.</p>

Right now, if I was looking used, the Technics would be high on the list.  For new, Roland has to be nearly the best to look at, imo.</p>

 </p>

[mashaffer]

Re: Never played an organ, but want to--- am i crazy?!



If I might suggest freecycle.com is a good resource for unwanted instruments. I got my Wurlitzer 4502 that way. There are some issues to deal with regarding the spectratone but it is entirely usable. Some careful looking can turn up a free instrument.</p>

 </p>

mike </p>

[tdh25k]

Re: Never played an organ, but want to--- am i crazy?!



thanks for the freecycle tip, although the group moderators are really finicky about where you live. i live in cincinnati (within the city limits), and the mods of the "cincinnati east suburbs" are giving me a hard way to go. i don't get that...but that's neither here nor there.</p>

continued thanks for the responses, guys.</p>

here's a $40 lowrey from the 60's, no idea on make or model or if it's worth looking at (bright, IN is a good 30 min drive, but not bad)</p>

http://cincinnati.craigslist.org/msg/873755071.html
</p>

[jimmywilliams]

Re: Never played an organ, but want to--- am i crazy?!

[quote user="tdh25k"]


i say i want that "old time" sound, but in reality, i don't know what that is. </P>


[/quote]</P>


Well, if you have heard organ recordings that you like (either solo or even in a band), let us know what they are and then maybe we can get a better idea of the sound you are looking for, and which organ would be suitable. "Old-time" in the context of popular music, for instance, can mean a 1960s Hammond/Leslie or a 1960s Farfisa combo organ - two very different sounds. It can also mean the "roller rink" theater organ sound. Organs can very greatly in regards to the sounds they can produce, and the most important thing with any instrument is if it can produce the sort of music you want it to. So a good place to start is to think of organ music that YOU like, and start from there. To answer your other question - you will have to practice. As someone else said, there are "self-teaching" resources out there, so you don't absolutely need a teacher right away to learn the basics. But there is no way out of spending the time necessary toactually play - you have to learn by doing.</P>


-jim</P>

[tdh25k]

Re: Never played an organ, but want to--- am i crazy?!



good point, jim. off the top of my head, bands that i'm pretty sure used an actual organ to the effect i like: procol harum, the beatles, stereolab, pink floyd, radiohead, bob dylan, deep purple...etc... there's others i'm sure i could list if i had all of my music in front of me. i don't really like iron butterfly that much, but that was a pretty cool tone they had on ina gadda...
</p>

i know some of those selections are definitely a hammond b3/leslie that i don't have room for and also don't want to spend the money on.</p>

i'm pretty sure i don't like "roller rink" organs, or even the sound of the organ they use at the ballpark. well, i mean, that's not the sound i'm looking for (i'm sure those are perfectly good organs!).i likely won't ever play church music, or jazz, or gospel. does that help?
</p>

i'm definitely prepared to learn by doing, i was just referring to the fact that my "time away from home" is limited, so i'd prefer to be self-taught. i have a 4-month old at home, so i have plenty of practice time while she sleeps, but can't necessarily get away to take lessons.
</p>

[jimmywilliams]

Re: Never played an organ, but want to--- am i crazy?!

[quote user="tdh25k"]


good point, jim. off the top of my head, bands that i'm pretty sure used an actual organ to the effect i like: procol harum, the beatles, stereolab, pink floyd, radiohead, bob dylan, deep purple...etc... i know some of those selections are definitely a hammond b3/leslie that i don't have room for and also don't want to spend the money on. ... i'm pretty sure i don't like "roller rink" organs...i likely won't ever play church music, or jazz, or gospel. does that help?</P>


[/quote]</P>


Yes this helps - a lot. It sounds to me like you need an organ who's tones are mainly comprised of combinations of "pure" flute tones at different pitches. You seem to have no use for what are called "complex" voices (strings, reeds, or even brass, synth, etc.). You are definitely going for that "classic rock" type of sound that Hammonds were used for a lot, but since you are not playing jazz/gospel you probably don't need that Hammond precussion either. Luckily there are less expensive alternatives than a large Hammond console with external Leslie.</P>


You get a self-contained Hammond tonewheel spinet with drawbars and a built-in Leslie baffle - if such a thing exists (the Hammond guys know more about specific models like that than I do). If they were not made with internal Leslies you may have to settle for the "vibrato" instead - don't know how good that is since I never played one. Others will chime in I'm sure.</P>


Or, my "biased" recommendation - get a Gulbransen Paragon spinet with drawbars -has aself-contained Leslie baffle, separate internal bass speaker - a solid sounding organ that you can sometimes find for free(or atleast for cheap!). An added bonus - it also has a very nice sounding piano effect and reverb/sustain controls too. </P>


You will probably need the flexibility of the drawbar pitch adjustments to get some of the tonal colors you are looking for, based on what you are saying. If you don't need drawbars, there are a whole bunch of other older makes/models out there that are based on "flute tone" combinations as well. If you go that route instead, you want one that has a self-contained Leslie baffle.</P>


Hope this helps! Good luck, and don't settle. You know what you are after. Be patient - you will find what you need sooner or later.</P>


-jim</P>

[crossyinoz]

Re: Never played an organ, but want to--- am i crazy?!

[quote user="tdh25k"]


bands that i'm pretty sure used an actual organ to the effect i like: procol harum, the beatles, stereolab, pink floyd, radiohead, bob dylan, deep purple...etc... </P>


i know some of those selections are definitely a hammond b3/leslie that i don't have room for and also don't want to spend the money on.[/quote]</P>


G'day,</P>


The organ for you is one of these: Hammond T200, T300, T400, T500, XTP.</P>


They are all tonewheel (a la B3) spinets with inbuilt 2 speed Leslie, they'll all give you the sound you like, they don't take up much room (44" of wall space), they all have a headphone socket so you can practice without disturbing your youngster and purchasing one won't make a big hole in the bank account.</P>


You can find more info on the features ofthese instruments at www.captain-foldback.com . </P>


Kam-pai,</P>


Ian</P>
<P mce_keep="true"></P>
<P mce_keep="true"></P>

[andyg]

Re: Never played an organ, but want to--- am i crazy?!



I'll agree with Ian about the T series organs. They will give you the Pink Floyd and Procol Harum sounds for sure and will come up with some other 60's type sounds with the various degrees of vibrato they offer as well as the leslie. They're solid state, pretty reliable and easy to fix if you have problems.
</p>

And they're way cheaper than some of the other classic tonewheels.</p>

Andy</p>

</p>