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  • Leslie 212S - Could it be used with a Hammond?

    One year of Hammond ownership, it might only be an L102 but I love it, and a Leslie 212S has come my way. I had thought to somehow utilise the Amp and replace the workings with a DIY Horn and Bass set up.

    But it is such a rare speaker I wonder if I have the 'right' to do this. The gentleman I obtained the speaker from did have it connected to a Hammond once via a hook up kit. I know not the Hammond model or hook up kit. Given this is true then surely it is not impossible to somehow feed the organ pre-amp output to the 212S?

    I am curious about the "Space Generator" too, it seems a lot of effort for what seems to be a subtle effect to the 'Stationary' channel?

    By my simple interpretation of Forum and Web articles I will need:
    1. A single switch set up for Off-Slow-Fast rotation of the two Rotosonic speaker motors.
    2. A 240v mains supply.
    3. Some kind of crossover (?) circuit to split the signal between the channels (Treble-Mid-Bass?)
    4. An on-off swich for the "Space Generator" effect (I believe the motor is constantly running)
    The 'Keyboard Service' site helpfully identifies the 9 Pin connections.

    My wife cannot wait for me to fail... is she going to be right again?!!

    I am probably more naive than I sound but is there a ray of optimism from anyone?

    Thanks.

  • #2
    Jeff Gascoyne I cannot advise you too much, I had a 212s years ago, but it was previously attached to a Wurlitzer. When you search for 212s, the image of one in front of a blue van is mine. I posted it here years ago, and the Google bots found it. I think the 212s was more or less identical to the 202s, except it had a solid state amp, and more power than the 202s. As such it has some unusual speed and channel switching schemes. It has four channels in the amp, and surely a special crossover to deal with that.

    One rotor is set up for fast speed, while the other can be switched from fast to slow. These controls are semi-integrated with some channel switching as well as a “Space Generator”. The Rotosonic speakers have a different sound, than the horn Leslies, more of a theater sound than a rock and roll sound.

    Here's a list I could find of the various connector kits. I think these are all intended for 212S to Wurlitzer, but could have some good info on connections:
    7418
    7437
    7460
    7467
    7474
    7773
    7774

    You did not say where you are, mine was USA 110v connection. It's a great cabinet, one of the all-wood ones, before particle board shelves started. The top shelf was spaced differently than a horn Leslie. I considered a shelf from Valhalla, but that's a pretty good woodworking project. I had a guitar player friend that talked me out of it, for guitar (most of a guitar's frequencies are covered by the 15). Mine was partially stripped when I got it, further convincing me to look for another candidate. If you are interested, I think I have the cable, the 4-channel amp and maybe one of the Rotosonic drums, with original speakers.
    Unwanted Bitcoin? Dispose of them safely here:14hjbheQVki8eG75otRK4d2MQBarCCWQfJ

    Comment


    • #3
      andyg , perhaps move this to a Hammond/Leslie sub instead of here?
      Unwanted Bitcoin? Dispose of them safely here:14hjbheQVki8eG75otRK4d2MQBarCCWQfJ

      Comment


      • andyg
        andyg commented
        Editing a comment
        Topic moved to correct section.

    • #4
      There is an unwritten rule that says if you can supply the correct signals and voltages to a Leslie, on the correct pins, it will be happy, so you can hook up just about any organ to any Leslie.

      Just how well the combination works and how good it sounds depends on which organ and leslie are being connected and on how well it's done.

      The 212S is one of the 'dedicated' type of leslie and, to be honest, it only really works properly on its intended organ. You can get it to work on a Hammond in a pseudo single-channel mode but never that well. You need to split the organ's bass frequencies off before the leslie and ensure that they go only to the leslie's bass amp and woofer. Higher frequencies can go to the main Rotosonic, but that's only one speed. If you send the highs to the second, smaller Rotosonic, you'll have slow and fast but the tremolo will be less pronounced. Some of these cabinets have their second Rotosonic with two speakers, running at half the usual speed for a milder tremolo effect.

      So many people will choose to gut the 212S and make a Franken-leslie. Remove the second Rotosonic and replace with horns. Fit a two speed motor stack for the main Rotosonic, or remove it and fit a foam OEM rotor from a scrapped organ. Lots of variations possible.

      Given that there are very few takers for a 212S as it is, to hook on a vintage Wurlitzer, Thomas or Conn, gutting and repurposing it as a single channel leslie for a Hammond is fine by me, but think of all the work that will go into it. Happy to spend the time, effort and money on what will still be second best to a 145 or 760? Then go ahead!
      It's not what you play. It's not how you play. It's the fact that you're playing that counts.

      New website now live - www.andrew-gilbert.com

      Current instruments: Roland Atelier AT900 Platinum Edition, Yamaha Genos, Yamaha PSR-S970, Kawai K1m
      Retired Organs: Lots! Kawai SR6 x 2, Hammond L122, T402, T500 x 2, X5. Conn Martinique and 652. Gulbransen 2102 Pacemaker. Kimball Temptation.
      Retired Leslies, 147, 145 x 2, 760 x 2, 710, 415 x 2.
      Retired synths: Korg 700, Roland SH1000, Jen Superstringer, Kawai S100F, Kawai S100P, Kawai K1

      Comment


      • #5
        Firstly, thank you for the responses and offers of advice and equipment. I find I am coming across your wisdom and experiences across many posts.

        Thanks piccothinker, I am in Manchester England, the list of connector kits will certainly be useful.

        But it does sound like the effort of linking the stock cabinet to a Hammond would result in disappointment.
        Thank you andyg for the advice, it seems a consistent theme that the 212S is really not for a Hammond.

        So now it's picking out what is useful from the cabinet.
        My intention would be to install a compression horn driver into the top of the cabinet after modifying the shelf position.
        I would then fit a rotating baffle for a bass woofer.

        I have the beautiful cabinet with, I believe, additional louvres to the classic cabinets!
        What else is suitable to make use of?

        The wonderful wondrous “Space Generator” will be removed and carefully stored. If someone is searching for one please point them my way.

        The amplifier would be useful to incorporate maybe?
        The motors for the speaker drums are surely capable of use in the project?
        The bass woofer must be useable.
        The bearings from the drums.

        So the required electronics will need to;

        power the amplifier (240v AC)
        power and regulatate the motors' speed (AC and DC?)
        seperate the frequencies to the horn and bass (800Hz)

        I will incorporate the mains electricity supply into the cabinet. I do not know why but using a multi core cable from organ to cabinet carrying 240v doesn't sit right with me.

        Does the L102 amplifier have sufficient power or would the cabinet amplifier be better suited?

        I think I was half-hoping someone would shout out, “Stop, I'm looking for a Leslie 212S”. It does seem a shame these look like becoming even rarer now.......


        Comment


        • #6
          You'll basically need:

          Compression driver and horn rotor assembly. Motors from the upper Rotosonic might be OK for this.
          OEM leslie unit from any old organ that has one - complete with two speed motor stack. (might need small mods to the motor assembly as it will be running vertically rather than horizontally.

          You should be able to use the woofer from the 212S.

          You gut things, put in new upper and lower shelves, cut a hole for the 15" woofer that's in the right place! Install the treble driver and horn rotors, then the OEM leslie motor and drum (minus its own 8" speaker, of course). You need to sort out speed switching. Safer to power the leslie from external AC, yes, but leslies have been powered via the leslie cable since leslies were invented. Have you even heard of an issue caused by this? It wasn't until the 11 pin era that they were powered via their own cable.

          You might be able to use two of the amps in the 212S to drive the two speakers, should have more poke than using the L's own amp. But you'd meed to build a suitable crossover at 800Hz top split the L's signal into treble and bass.

          That's basically it... but I'm sure there will be more than that. Like I said, a lot of time and effort, and money. Personally, I'd look for a 760 or 770 and build the very simple connector kit that they need. If you're at home and not planning to gig it, even a two channel 415 would do, and you can find them cheaply enough. Just send the L's signal to the rotary channel and the 415 will split off the bass and send it to its woofer.

          Up to you my friend, but either way, you'll eventually end up with something that sounds good!
          It's not what you play. It's not how you play. It's the fact that you're playing that counts.

          New website now live - www.andrew-gilbert.com

          Current instruments: Roland Atelier AT900 Platinum Edition, Yamaha Genos, Yamaha PSR-S970, Kawai K1m
          Retired Organs: Lots! Kawai SR6 x 2, Hammond L122, T402, T500 x 2, X5. Conn Martinique and 652. Gulbransen 2102 Pacemaker. Kimball Temptation.
          Retired Leslies, 147, 145 x 2, 760 x 2, 710, 415 x 2.
          Retired synths: Korg 700, Roland SH1000, Jen Superstringer, Kawai S100F, Kawai S100P, Kawai K1

          Comment


          • #7
            Thank you andyg for the pointers. I half imagine it's a 'here we go again' situation where experience shows disaster awaits the ignorant... for the experienced wouldn't go down this road....

            But I will persist in using what this speaker provides and link it to the L-Series organ (another uneconomical project).

            In the hope that someone will point out basic errors, and the possibility it may be useful to others, I'll continue a little while longer with a resume of thoughts and actions.

            The speaker components are now extracted and decases of dust and dead spiders removed.

            For re-use I have:

            The 4ohm 031070 speaker, as previously advised.
            The two, apparently, two speed motors.
            The amplifiers... bass and one other from the four available.
            And from the power supply unit, the power supply (pin 8 live 240v AC, pin 9 neutral) and motor speed control circuits.

            I have a 16ohm 60w horn driver and numerous options for the horn and counterweight.

            I see no challenge in providing a 29v DC supply for the motor relay circuit (pin 5 - 2amp).

            I intend to use a couple of foot switches for the motor speeds (pins 1 and 6, and pins 1 and 7).

            This hopefully 'just' leaves the crossover circuit.

            So here's where I confirm my ignorance in all matters electronic and mathematical.

            Butterworth, Chebychev, Linkwitz-Riley, Bessel, Gaussian.... names that conjure up traumatic memories from past studies. Without understanding the mathematics, are these options related to the efficiency of separation for the bass and treble frequencies?

            Is there a preferred function and order for Leslie speakers, or is it pays-your-money-and-makes-your-choice?

            Also, is there a problem with leaving the redundant 'space generator' circuit disconnected?


            Comment


            • #8
              One further request for advice... I assume there is no 'braking' from the original 212s circuit?

              If there isn't is this a nice to have or is it a problem?

              If it does... do I need to use the switching to apply different voltages between pins 1 and 6 and 1 and 7?

              Comment


              • #9
                You're looking at creating a custom leslie, so you'd need a custom kit, with relays to control the motors. The upper Rotosonic is slow/fast, with no stop option. If you fit a two speed stack to the lower Rotosonic, you could build things so that you could cut the power to both motors and let the drum coast to a stop but it will take a very long time to slow down!

                AS for crossovers, I'm not the one to ask but there are loads of threads on the subject in the Leslies section, including links to calculators which will work out component values, if you tell it the impedance of the speakers and the crossover point etc.
                It's not what you play. It's not how you play. It's the fact that you're playing that counts.

                New website now live - www.andrew-gilbert.com

                Current instruments: Roland Atelier AT900 Platinum Edition, Yamaha Genos, Yamaha PSR-S970, Kawai K1m
                Retired Organs: Lots! Kawai SR6 x 2, Hammond L122, T402, T500 x 2, X5. Conn Martinique and 652. Gulbransen 2102 Pacemaker. Kimball Temptation.
                Retired Leslies, 147, 145 x 2, 760 x 2, 710, 415 x 2.
                Retired synths: Korg 700, Roland SH1000, Jen Superstringer, Kawai S100F, Kawai S100P, Kawai K1

                Comment

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