adding second leslie (145) to A100 and 251

[sjoerd1234]

Hey guys,

I recently acquired a leslie 145 (220v). I want to hook it up to my A100 which already has a 251 connected to it. The 251 is connected with the correct 251 leslie kit. Audio signal comes from GG outputs and power separately from a wall socket since organ is 110v and leslie 220v. I have another leslie kit (037655) available for the 145 if necessary. I would like to be able to use the half moon switches already in place (from the 251) for both leslies if possible. Should there be any problem if I hook up the leslie 145 via the 251 kit together with the 251? I am aware of the differences in the 6C and 6W cable pin outs, I posted them below. Is there anything I should be aware of? I see the only difference in pinouts is pin 4 and pin 5. Any advice?

Thanks!

1	Black	INPUT [Balanced]	SIGNAL GROUND	SIGNAL GROUND
2	Yellow	SIGNAL/DC GROUND	TREMOLO RELAY COIL	TREMOLO RELAY COIL
3	Gray	AC POWER IN	AC POWER IN	AC POWER IN
4	Blue	AC POWER IN	AC POWER IN	AC POWER IN/ TREMOLO RELAY COIL
5	Brown	B+ [Approx.300VDC]	TREMOLO RELAY COIL	CHANNEL TWO INPUT [Unbalanced]
6	Red	INPUT [Balanced]	SIGNAL INPUT [Unbalanced]	CHANNEL ONE INPUT [Unbalanced]

[Jaim]

If you look at a 6W kit - pins 4 & 5 are connected together. In the 145 amp, pin 5 goes to the tremolo relay.
On a 6C connection (Leslie 251), kit pin 5 carries the secondary audio. In the 251 amp, the tremolo relay is connected to pin 4.

You can effectively make the 145 amp a 6C type connection by removing the tremolo relay wire off pin 5 and connecting it to pin 4. WIred like this, the 145 will work on a 6W or 6C connection.

Jim

[sjoerd1234]

If you look at a 6W kit - pins 4 & 5 are connected together. In the 145 amp, pin 5 goes to the tremolo relay.
On a 6C connection (Leslie 251), kit pin 5 carries the secondary audio. In the 251 amp, the tremolo relay is connected to pin 4.

You can effectively make the 145 amp a 6C type connection by removing the tremolo relay wire off pin 5 and connecting it to pin 4. WIred like this, the 145 will work on a 6W or 6C connection.

Jim

Allright thanks for the reply. I do not intend to change the amp. I'd rather change the wiring outside the leslie. I have another 6 pin socket laying around I can connect to the socket in the 8253 kit and put the 145 cable in. Just to be sure is there anyone who can confirm this, you know just in case i blow something up;). But as you say there should not be any compatibility problems with the 145 and 251 kit and 251 leslie besides the 6C and 6W cable differences? Also the 251 kit I have is a 8253 btw.

[Jaim]

You can make the pin 4 to 5 connection in the kit (6W type), however that connection could only be used for the 145. Plugging in the 251 could put AC on pin 5 (secondary audio).

Jim

[sjoerd1234]

You can make the pin 4 to 5 connection in the kit (6W type), however that connection could only be used for the 145. Plugging in the 251 could put AC on pin 5 (secondary audio).

Jim

I do not intend to change the kit. I meant wiring the 145 to the 251 kit every pin from the 6pin 145 separately to the 251(8253) kit.

[Jaim]

That would be fine except this new connection would be for a 145 (6W) only.
In reality, the only difference between a 6C and a 6W is the use of pin 5. If you disregard the secondary audio, the difference is where the tremolo relay connection is made (Kit or amp)

Jim

[sjoerd1234]

That would be fine except this new connection would be for a 145 (6W) only.
In reality, the only difference between a 6C and a 6W is the use of pin 5. If you disregard the secondary audio, the difference is where the tremolo relay connection is made (Kit or amp)

Jim

Alright final question, about your first answer you say I can turn my 145 into a 6C connection by removing tremolo relay coil from pin 5 and connecting it to pin 4. I think this is the best solution. Is this not a problem for the 145 in any way since you're adding AC POWER IN into tremolo relay coil where normally this is not the case? Also couldn't this change be done between the leslie amp and leslie cable

[Jaim]

One side of the tremolo relay connects to pin 5 and the other to pin 2. Pin 2 is the switched side.
Like I mentioned earlier the 147 kit has pins 4 & 5 connected. Whether this connection is in the kit / cable or amp (like a 251) is immaterial.

One other thing came to mind. As these are 220V leslies, is the switching 220v as well?

[sjoerd1234]

One side of the tremolo relay connects to pin 5 and the other to pin 2. Pin 2 is the switched side.
Like I mentioned earlier the 147 kit has pins 4 & 5 connected. Whether this connection is in the kit / cable or amp (like a 251) is immaterial.

One other thing came to mind. As these are 220V leslies, is the switching 220v as well?

allright thanks, The leslies are European 220v, I do not know about the switching but if in the US versions switching is 110v then for the 220v leslie the switching is probably 220v aswel. I might be wrong though.

[sjoerd1234]

Oke I hooked everything up. Got one problem. The 145 works perfectly. But the 251 doesn't. When on chorale position everything works. Both leslies sound great. When I turn the switch to tremolo the 251 doesn't go fast and the motor makes a very fast ticking noise. The 145 works perfect. When I unplug the 145 cable the 251 works perfect again. The tremolo coil on pin 2 seems to give a problem for the 251 when the 145 is hooked to it aswel. Any suggestions?

[sjoerd1234]

I did some voltage measuring. And i see a difference which might be the cause. When measuring the tremolo relay coil voltage between pin 2 and pin 4. With only 251 connected the voltage reads 230 on chorale and 130 on tremolo. With only the 145 connected chorale gives 230 and tremolo 15. Does anybody know what this means? Btw the noise of the 251 in tremolo position sounds like the relay buzzes like a doorbell. I've been experimenting all day, even trying to connect the 145 trough the second kit which connects to the 251 kit. I found out by doing this if I connect pin 2 from 145 with the 251 directly as done before but now with a resistor added aswel between the connection, (so direct connection as before AND with resistor added) both leslies operated on fast whereas before the 251 buzzed. Switching back to chorale seems to work aswell for both leslies. However switching back to tremolo doesn't work for the 145. Any suggestions?

[Jaim]

I wonder if the two leslies have different relay coils. With leslies disconnected: 147 - measure resistance between pins 2-5.
251 - measure resistance between pins 2 -4.

Jim

[muckelroy]

This is acting as if the relay coils are wired in series, but I don't even know how that can be possible. Relay coils are switched in and out of circuit, and when they are, they're in parallel with AC.

You hear stories of house wiring nightmares such as “when I turn on my hair dryer, the lights go dim”. Such nonsense happens when stuff gets wired in series and not parallel. But again I cannot figure out how this would apply to Leslie tremolo coils.

[sjoerd1234]

I wonder if the two leslies have different relay coils. With leslies disconnected: 147 - measure resistance between pins 2-5.
251 - measure resistance between pins 2 -4.

Jim

Allright I checked it and there's a difference! The 147 reads nothing and the 251 reads 3.03:

251:

[sjoerd1234]

This is acting as if the relay coils are wired in series, but I don't even know how that can be possible. Relay coils are switched in and out of circuit, and when they are, they're in parallel with AC.

You hear stories of house wiring nightmares such as “when I turn on my hair dryer, the lights go dim”. Such nonsense happens when stuff gets wired in series and not parallel. But again I cannot figure out how this would apply to Leslie tremolo coils.

When I change the ohm selector switch on the 145 (8 ohm, 16 ohm, open) the sound volume changes not only for the 145 but the 251 aswel. There might be a problem with series parallel indeed.

When everything is hooked up except pin 2 tremolo relay coil from the 145, the the 251 works fine. The moment I connect pin 2 from the 145 to pin 2 of the 251, the 251 relay goes buzzing like crazy.

I've got some really big questionmarks above my head. Spend the entire afternoon again experimenting without result. Eagerly awaiting the organforum guru's, i'm clueless