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Lowest note for the lowest price -subwoofer

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  • Lowest note for the lowest price -subwoofer

    Using Hauptwerk console, have Crystal cathedrals AS organ sample, what subwoofer can accommodate beefy 16' and various 32' at the lowest price?

  • #2
    Uh-oh! Another 32' fan!

    Mr. Michael-John, welcome to the Forum! May I suggest searching the Forum for Subwoofer? There have been several rather extensive threads on the subject here. Below, I've listed a few:Hope that helps, and welcome to the Forum!

    Michael

    P.S. Be careful! You could be reading for DAYS!!!
    Way too many organs to list, but I do have 5 Allens:
    • MOS-2 Model 505-B / ADC-4300-DK / ADC-5400 / ADC-6000 (Symphony) / ADC-8000DKC
    • Lowrey Heritage (DSO-1)
    • 11 Pump Organs, 1 Pipe Organ & 7 Pianos

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    • #3
      Many years ago, I heard something that's been quite useful to me ever since.

      "EVERY speaker works. It's just that some work better than others."

      Or somewhat in the same vein,

      "How [low] you wanna go? How much money you got?"
      You can also replace 'low' with fast, loud, high, strong, light, heavy, etc. depending on discipline involved.

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      • #4
        If your organ setup is in a living room or at home, then you might look at the powered subs sold for home theater use. While the very compact ones with impossibly small woofers may be intended mainly to provide some "boom-boom" to action flick movies, the more serious models are plenty good enough to produce good organ tones in the lowest octaves. (The subject of getting all the way down to 16 Hz has been bounced around here, and suffice it to say that such a goal may not be achievable without unreasonable cost, but a hefty foundational sound well down into the 32' octave is do-able.)

        I'd probably look at the powered subs sold by Parts-Express. They aren't a "boutique" audio store of course, and neither are their prices. They have a line of their own "Dayton" powered subs that are amazingly affordable. Here's the 15" member of that family. Lots of great reviews for it (though as always there are a few naysayers -- probably people trying to use it for a purpose for which it was not intended)...

        https://www.parts-express.com/dayton...oofer--300-634

        Note that I haven't personally used one of these. But I do buy a lot of stuff from Parts-Express and have never been disappointed with any of it.
        John
        ----------
        *** Please post your questions about technical service or repair matters ON THE FORUM. Do not send your questions to me or another member by private message. Information shared is for the benefit of the entire organ community, but other folks will not be helped by information we exchange in private messages!

        https://www.facebook.com/pages/Birds...97551893588434

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        • #5
          Originally posted by jbird604 View Post
          I'd probably look at the powered subs sold by Parts-Express. They aren't a "boutique" audio store of course, and neither are their prices.


          But I do buy a lot of stuff from Parts-Express and have never been disappointed with any of it.
          As one who has been fooled by the "boutique" stuff before, I can only say "hear,hear!" on the Parts Express stuff.
          It works just fine and certainly fine for anyone's home, even in a dedicated theater room.
          With a smattering of audio understanding, a fellow can assemble an amazingly good system at prices we could only dream about decades gone by.

          I also am firmly convinced the boutique stuff earned their rep by audiophool hype - that has largely dissipated in recent years - and the need for corksniffers to debate.
          But that's probably me just being unnecessarily cynical :-)


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          • #6
            I use a Behringer "Eurolive" VQ1500D active subwoofer which has a 500 watt, class D amplifier that drives a 15" speaker. I use this on both my B3 (which has a Trek II string bass unit) and a Thomas Palace 3. The unit cost $350 and has a big brother that sports an 18" speaker for $ 400. I bought the unit online from www.zzounds.com. Being on disability (as u can imagine money is tight), I like this website for a number of reasons. I've probably spent a thousand of so over the last few years (I bought a digital piano for my grandson and another for myself, along with various accessories,) and also because they let you make payments. Anyway, I'm really happy with the Behringer unit.
            Over the years: Hammond M3, BC, M102, B3, four X77s and three PR-40s, a Thomas Electra and a Celebrity, three Fender Rhodes, Roland HS-10, HP-2000, HP-600, RD-600, JV-880, a thing made by Korg (?), two Leslie 910s, 122, 257, 258, 247, two 142s, and three custom-built Leslies. Wow, way too much money spent!

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            • #7
              If you have more money than you know what to do with, try a Danley DTS20 or DTS10. https://www.danleysoundlabs.com/prod...pecialty-subs/

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              • #8
                I recently experimented with a little 6" powered sub I got on sale for $1 at goodwill. I found satisfactory bass even around 16hz when full range audio was played through it.

                One experiment involved playing a recording I made that I think I had boosted the bass in the sound file itself. The base came out surprisingly strong. down to the 32' range. The recording also consisted of mid range notes too including a high pitched mixture stop.

                An other experiment was where I played a recording of an organ downloaded from youtube (youtube output quality both video and audio is significantly degraded from the original files). I adjusted the windows media player EQ to compensate the high frequencies that don't come naturally for a subwoofer. It too had satisfactory bass.

                But just playing pure individual tones 20-32hz, it was underwhelming. Just something to consider.
                Allen 530A

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                • #9
                  Classic tonal deception of small subs intended for home theater or computer sound. They often give an amazing impression of producing copious bass, but serious testing reveals that there is not a great deal of output in the lower octaves.

                  Goes to show how easily the ear is fooled, and how relatively unaware we are of harmonic distortion (which by its nature is not "ugly" distortion like intermodulation or clipping, etc.). These underwhelming subs give the impression of big bass by putting out a lot of sound at two, three, and four times the frequency of the bass notes fed into them. The ear makes the assumption that because we "hear" these frequencies which are natural overtones of the bass note we are wanting to hear, that the fundamental must actually be there, or that it is much stronger than it really is.

                  I figured out years ago that voicing an organ with a really loud 16' Subbass will fool nearly everyone into thinking it has deep and profound bass on the 32' stops, even when the 32's are in fact nearly non-existent. The 16' stop presenting a loud second harmonic of the 32' pitch has the effect of making the 32' stop seem much louder than it is. That is of course a fortunate thing in the organ business, as we all know how hard it really is to get actual fundamental tones out of a speaker system down in the range below 20 Hz.

                  Another bit of evidence came when I used to have a 15-band graphic EQ in the audio path of a big organ I played in church. I discovered early on that the best way to make the bass profound was to boost the frequencies up around 60 Hz. That was far more effective than boosting the 15 Hz or 30 Hz ranges, either because the speakers couldn't handle those frequencies or the organ itself didn't actually put out much in that range.

                  This auditory quirk works for the organ companies quite well. Consider the Rodgers SW7.5 cabinet used so widely for 20 years or more as the standard speaker on the bass channels. Gives the impression of massive bass, but my informal measurements seem to show that the response to fundamentals pretty much ends at around 25 Hz, only halfway down into the 32' octave. The rest of the output that we think we hear is mostly the 2nd and 3rd harmonics, but that satisfies the ear and makes us think we are hearing the 32' stop "all the way down."
                  John
                  ----------
                  *** Please post your questions about technical service or repair matters ON THE FORUM. Do not send your questions to me or another member by private message. Information shared is for the benefit of the entire organ community, but other folks will not be helped by information we exchange in private messages!

                  https://www.facebook.com/pages/Birds...97551893588434

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I too found the best results boosting the 62hz and 125hz, not so much the 31hz. I don't know how exactly the windows media player EQ works, but maybe we can visualize the 32hz slider as widening the bass sound waves, 62hz as adding an audible emphasis, and 125hz as sharpen the bass wave peaks.

                    I don't think small subs use 16' frequencies to fool us. I think playing full range music through them with their strong bass tendencies pulses all the higher frequencies clearly at the rate of even a 16hz fundamental. Now you don't have to listen for a subtle rumble, or have 1000 watts of earth quaking subwoofer power because you can easily hear the affect of the 32' notes, which makes you able to pick out and hear those 32' notes. The sound quality won't be as true to a real organ, but then again I'm wondering if in a small room I'd be much more satisfied hearing premixed bass vs clean bass on an independent channel and speaker.

                    I just don't know how well premixing all into a sub would sound with some mid and high frequency dedicated speakers too. It would almost seem redundant to have the mids and highs, but then again it might work out well having more dimension with multiple mids and highs, and one mono mix.

                    Click image for larger version

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                    Last edited by Nutball; 04-29-2019, 07:20 PM.
                    Allen 530A

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                    • Nutball
                      Nutball commented
                      Editing a comment
                      With further testing, I observed this subwoofer's cone travel significantly decreased below 20hz. The dBa decreased quickly below around 40hz. I boosted the volume as high as I felt safe putting 16hz through this one, and got 65dBa at 1 meter (plenty for me), and 50dBa most anywhere else in the 20x30ft room (still quite usable with my sensitive hearing if playing quietly).

                      One issue noticed was how 16hz has many pockets of interference in a 20x30 room, but with proper placement, you can find clear bass far enough from a wall or corner to have room for the organ.

                      Of course the other issue with 32' stops is trying to get smooth response. If the organ can't be voiced on a nearly note by note basis, money needs to be spent on special active or passive crossovers or an EQ.
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