Need advice re:Leslie 22H modification

[Tonewheel]

Greetings to the gang. I was hoping for some help with this.

I have a B3 with 21H and 147 linked together at home, and an A100 at a little cabin in Montana paired with a 610. Yes, you can chuckle at that one. But it has at least worked for some time. I came across a 22H for $200 not long ago, and it was far enough away that I had my son in law pick it up for me and bring it home to me the next time he was in town. I want to replace the 610 with this. Maybe a bit of a risk, but read on.

The cabinet was not in bad shape, the amp lights up, the audio is patched with a 1/4 inch jack in the amp case, and the motors work EXCEPT a jerry-rigged stepper motor hanging from the upper motor, which is near frozen. When the stepper motor is detached, both fast motors work as expected. The fast/stop is switched by another jack in the amp case, and a simple pedal does the trick for now.

I tried the stepper motor alone, and under power does not budge. I really have to twist to get it to turn.

I have bought a Leslie toggle on eBay and plan to work this in to the 22H rig.

My question is this: Should I get another stepper motor or just avoid problems by getting a Hamptone conversion kit like I used for my 21H? I am leaning towards the latter, because having the lower rotor with dual speeds should sound much better than fast/stop, and I suspect that the new stepper motor may give up in this current modification by the previous owner (he told me tonight when I called that this was the second one installed).

Thanks for looking at this...

Dave

AFTERTHOUGHT: In spite of thinking that the step motor was seized, I did drip some hammond oil in, and to my embarrassment, this thing is turning very easily! So, tomorrow, I'll reassemble and see what happens. Nevertheless, it may still be a better idea to go for the Hamptone, but I would be grateful for opinions.

[Sweet Pete]

I played a 'motor controller' two speed conversion a few years back.
Was ready to have my world 'rocked' but the ramp up/down times on the lower rotor was disappointing.
Geo told me it depends on the motors being clean and adjusted.
To which I must ask;"Doesn't a 122 also need properly adjusted motor stacks?" Mine are ready to go!
People who are used to a 122/147 know what it should sound like.This is a good enough conversion for someone who never heard 'the real deal' IMO.
Once a player knows what it should sound like,conversion with two motor stacks is the only way to get that ramp time consistently.
It's more work than most are prepared to do.

Just how many 500-600 dollar 'investments' (by the time you are 'built' ) you make, is a question of time and how much you are willing to compromise.
I may not be a designer of aftermarket Hammond items,but I can hear! Properly adjusted two motor stacks are the only way to get 'the' ramp times!
Someone with $ to be made on it might disagree with me."It sounds just like a two motor stack Leslie?" Not in my opinion.
22H is a great sounding box as is.The one I played through with 'stacks' was awesome! Last time I heard that Leslie was the closing show for
Cellar Jazz,and Joey DeFrancesco was thumbs up about that box too! The house A122/22H never sounded better!

I would get motor stacks.Better and cheaper if you do the conversion yourself.

[David Anderson]

Is a "step motor" a two motor stack? It's common to find Leslie motor stacks that have not been properly maintained in decades. Sometimes they can be brought back, sometimes not.

If the 22H amp has any red tubular capacitors inside it that say "Tiny Chief," these must be replaced. They are time bombs. For that matter, the last 22H amp was made in 1962, so it's overdue for general tech service. That it lights up is good, but that doesn't mean it's in good working order.

[tpappano]

This is interesting! I have a 21H that I'm using a custom variable frequency drive (vfd) with to get two speed operation. What I observe on my ‘motor stack' Leslies is that the motor *pulley* rpm changes immediately when you change speeds. The lower rotor ramp up/down rate seems to be mostly dependent on belt slippage, which depends on the belt tension adjustment. With my vfd, the motors change speed instantly and the lower rotor ramps up and down just like with the stack Leslies. I'm interested in your thoughts on this, a friend and I are considering building some rotary cabinets with vfds and conventional motors for stage use. Thanks!

[Tonewheel]

These are very helpful responses.

Please correct me where I am wrong.

My 21H has a Hamptone, and it sounds great. It is paired with a 147, and it also sounds great. What I need to do is unplug one at a time to compare, because I suspect Pete is right. The ramp times may be better on the 147.

So back to the 22H. Dave is right. The motors can be brought back to life. After oiling the step or slow motor, and finding it twirls all right now, I reassembled the stack and hooked up the wiring. When I plug in the power, I can see the upper horn just twitch, which means the slow motor pin is in contact with the fast motor O ring, but only momentarily. So I pulled everything back out again (It is really like delivering a baby left occiput posterior, or sunny side up, with forceps....

What I found is that this motor has no spring. It seems that the tech who set this up added a motor with a fixed pin, such that the pin would be in contact with the rubber O ring at all times.

There are three bolts on this motor. An offset bolt can adjust the tilt of the step motor, which should bring the pin into contact. But I think that the constant drag causing the slow motor to spin fast will eventually damage the fast motor.

So either I get genuine slow motors with the spring or I go the expensive and fast way with the Hamptone.

Has anyone seen the slow motor I am describing? Rotom is stamped on the bottom.

[tpappano]

Is the slow motor simply missing the spring, which I think can be purchased, or did someone replace the original Leslie slow motor with something else?

[Tonewheel]

The original 22H had no slow motors, so this was an add-on, and there is no vertical play in the spindle at all, even with considerable force. So no spring at all.

Dave, I'll check for "Tiny Chief." Thanks for the advice.

[Tonewheel]

The correct slow motors are about $100 US each, so $200, and then Canadian exchange, which then makes it a bazillion dollars. Add shipping. Then adjusting the motors, perhaps modifying the cabinet and getting the wiring right. 4 motors to maintain vs 2 if I go the Hamptone route and the device is $250 from BB.

Can I go G-G from an A-100 to a 21H? This is a drummer speaking, not a guru like most of you here!

UNSOLICITED ADVICE: Keep safe by staying smart re: Covid-19. I am a recently retired doc, and there is a tug of war between safety and keeping the economy afloat. Since a good percentage of this forum are a bit grey-haired, it makes sense to be very careful for the next few months. A US friend told me that a couple they know were in hospital from C-19 acquired when the wife went baby-sitting. Kids have a lower viral load, meaning that when they get C-19, they don't have as many virus bugs floating around their system. So they don't appear sick if they have the bug. He died at 69 while both were inpatients, just overweight and hypertensive. No other medical problems.

So it's not a bad idea to carry a mask around and keep washing your hands. When someone clears the virus, they still shed viral RNA in their stool for weeks later. So, just keep washing your hands, getting a lather up. Watch getting into crowds. Just common sense. Hope we don't hear of any of the gang here getting into trouble with that bug.

[Goff]

I played a 'motor controller' two speed conversion a few years back.
Was ready to have my world 'rocked' but the ramp up/down times on the lower rotor was disappointing.

People who are used to a 122/147 know what it should sound like.

Chiming in just to agree with Pete. If the ramp animation goes off the rails, it's a deal breaker. :-P

Unless a rotor control system can keep the ramps intact, the focus is not on the right thing.

Even the wrong woofer will mess with the ramp character "whoo-whooing" the wrong frequencies. Not good.

There was a period of Leslie design where Don hit the sweet spot for Leslie ramps.

What we know to be "the sound."

I think we need to not lose sight of this. :emotion-55:

[Sweet Pete]

I hear the difference.These motor stacks have value beyond what I paid for them,which wasn't much.
Crossover also weighs into the ramp times in the octave shared by upper/lower! New caps are often noticed/heard more during lower drum 'inertia'.
The 'motor stack' modded Leslie 45 set me back 250 dollars,casters included.The fully serviced 760 stuffed into it sounds great!
Once the oldtimers who knew what it should sound like are gone,what will the new normal be? A morphed compromise no doubt.

[Goff]

Once the oldtimers who knew what it should sound like are gone,what will the new normal be? A morphed compromise no doubt.

Exactly. Sal and I would have these discussions on ramp, how the crossover would affect the lower rotor's ramp if the wrong cap values are in the xover.

Reason why I wish to have this discussion to archive this for the future's understanding of what we who were alive when this technology was invented, understood about these instruments.

The motors as they are define the ramp sound.

And yes to those that understand this, the motors are everything.

[Tonewheel]

So now this discussion between the pro's who not only maintain these beauties but have been on stage with them for decades is what we all need to hear.

From my uninformed brain, here is the question: Is there a specified ramp up time for the upper motors? My gut tells me that there should be a lag of about 2 seconds. I had always thought that the speed change on my 147 was very fast. I am so ignorant about this. I also thought that ramping can be controlled by adjusting belt tension and slippage with the lower motor. My gut would tell me 5-8 seconds minimum. Isn't the lower rotor sound the most important part of the discussion?

So I have just come back from the music room where the 55 B3 is running a 21H on my left with the Hamptone, and a 147 stock on my right.

The upper horns on both take about 2 seconds to get up to full speed.

The lower drums of course take a lot longer.

Other questions:

1. If the Hamptone is not a good choice because of ramp times, how hard would it be for the company to upgrade the board to allow such adjustments?

2. Should I upgrade the caps, Pete, at least in the 147 and the 22H, so that the octave where all the "meat" should be is enhanced, and the spin-up and -down sound great? I am assuming that there would be restoration of some of the relative highs that are still below the crossover frequency and would now be enhanced, less muddy, etc.?

Thanks for the thoughtful comments.

[Goff]

I had always thought that the speed change on my 147 was very fast.

AFIK the 147 amp itself lent to a faster engagement of the rotors. I bet if you swap amps in the same cabinet 122/147 you will notice a difference between the 122 amp and the 147 amp. At this point it's not the motors assuming the motors, upper tensioner pulley and the belts are not worn, are adjusted and the bearings on the lower rotor are in good condition, motors maintained.

Some prefer the 147 amp for the faster rotor engage.

[Sweet Pete]

These 145/147 and 760/251 all switch faster than a 122.
As long as the delay times between the rotors have the correct 'inertia' I can adjust my switching any of them with no issues.
The upper rotor changes almost instantly on all of them.
Spool up time on all of the lowers a little different being mechanical and more mass/weight.
About 8-9 seconds to ramp up to top speed on a 147/145/251/760,maybe 10-11 seconds on a 122.
Main criteria is the inertia created by speeding and slowing two motor stacks.
Inertia created mechanically is different than electronic control.
Smooth hand over of the o-ring on the pulley to each motor in both speed/slow settings will always create more dynamic tension than a pulse or frequency control.
Maybe a motor controller properly setup with clean motors and a new crossover would impress me.
I have no need though as these stacks will satisfy my need to hear the ramping inertia as Don intended with traditional one or two channel two rotor boxes.
The 760 in this 45 ramps up/down with those mods, just like the later factory two motor stack boxes built post '63.
Also have a 760 stuffed into a '63 122 box,same thing there,wonderful cab and loud as *ell too!
Managed to hang on to an actual 760 box.Now I can mod the HL722 and build an '11 pin two channel two rotor' for the 'clones'!
Most likely add a 528 crossover and passive that one a la '330'.
All three 760's and the HL722 set me back 400 all in.That's 100 apiece complete with kits/cables/spares.Won't be buying any motor controllers.

[Tonewheel]

More great insights. Pete, those deals are all in Canadian dollars? Amazing eye for good deals.

[Sweet Pete]

Yes.Canadian.Tucked away years ago when people were bailing on big gear.These days,looks like a good call.Not much around.
I sourced a complete box from an empty 122.Quite sure there is another empty 122 box in the mix,another 44 for sure.An empty 760 in decent restorable shape.Two categories are those needing and those 'wanting'.For some reason things I don't need make themselves available to me at the appropriate time to 'corral'.That I don't need it never deters me from getting out the Leslie Lassoo!(3/4 ton van).And they come in waves.Lean years followed by a bountiful harvest of horde worthy items.I know there's no need for twelve boxes,it's just FUN to assemble 'Don's Ark' LOL.
Also have a spinet showroom tucked away,no where to set it up at the moment,no worries.The 'spinet ark'.Easy way to answer how they differ is to accumulate one of each.To these ears the M3 is still the king of that pack,though modern features on others work great too!M3/100/L/T/E100,all free.
At this point a Hammond A/E/AB or a Leslie 46W would complete the "had one of those" as far as organs and speakers go.Won't feel bad if it doesn't happen,BC has way more access to the gear than Alberta,being from Ontario you must realize you are in the low density area.

[Tonewheel]

Actually, Pete, I am a bit dense....living in a low density area. The 55 B3 I found in Dillon, Montana with the 21H for 2500 US. Very, very good shape. Living rooms for over 60 years with a little sun fading. The A100 came from a church in Kalispell for 500 US. A few little fixes here and there without a tech. But I don't like the 205 (did I also say 610?) because the twirling pair of car speakers don't sound great. That thing cost me 500 Canadian at the time. LOTS of punch, though! So, the 22H should get me there. With the percussion fixed, recorded with an iPhone 6 in a small Montana log cabin, and me a drummer with beginner Hammond skills, this is how it sounds: https://voca.ro/hLK2s6CD1yo So you can tell that the 22H should be so much better. And you would sound fantastic.



It's funny, I'm starting to see B3's in Kijiji dropping in price by thousands. Not sure why. But the Wurlitzer 200A's have skyrocketed in price. Try to find one in great shape with all appendages attached for less than 2000 US. The Toronto bands I played in had M's. Amazing organ and not bad to haul around.