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    Adding toe studs to an Allen ADC-4500

    I just bought a handful of toe studs to use on my ADC-4500. I'm planning on doubling up general pistons 6-10. I want to use a couple to run the cymbal and bass drum effects and I'd really like use the rest as pedal divisionals. I'm already planning on mounting the studs to some rails that will bridge a couple of the internal speakers.

    My main questions are: Is there anything special I need to do to hook up the general toe studs? Or can they be attached parallel to the general pistons? Is it possible to separate the ACC/PED pistons into ACC pistons and PED toe studs? Are there any issues with setting up a couple of toe studs to bypass the cymbal and bass drum switches in the effects box? Is there a standard (AGO) position or spacing for toe studs?

    Thanks,
    Sam
    Sam
    Home: Allen ADC-4500 Church: Allen MDS-5
    Files: Allen Tone Card (TC) Database, TC Info, TC Converter, TC Mixer, ADC TC SF2, and MOS TC SF2, ADC TC Cad/Rvt, MOS TC Cad/Rvt, Organ Database, Music Library, etc. PM for unlinked files.

    #2
    Sam,

    Look through this thread and see if it helps: https://www.organforum.com/forums/sh...l=1#post247999.

    Michael
    Way too many organs to list, but I do have 5 Allens:
    • MOS-2 Model 505-B / ADC-4300-DK / ADC-5400 / ADC-6000 (Symphony) / ADC-8000DKC
    • Lowrey Heritage (DSO-1)
    • 9 Pump Organs, 1 Pipe Organ & 6 Pianos

    Comment


      #3
      Originally posted by samibe View Post
      I just bought a handful of toe studs to use on my ADC-4500. I'm planning on doubling up general pistons 6-10. I want to use a couple to run the cymbal and bass drum effects and I'd really like use the rest as pedal divisionals. I'm already planning on mounting the studs to some rails that will bridge a couple of the internal speakers.

      My main questions are: Is there anything special I need to do to hook up the general toe studs? Or can they be attached parallel to the general pistons? Is it possible to separate the ACC/PED pistons into ACC pistons and PED toe studs? Are there any issues with setting up a couple of toe studs to bypass the cymbal and bass drum switches in the effects box? Is there a standard (AGO) position or spacing for toe studs?

      Thanks,
      Sam
      The title of this thread caught my eye because I just bought 16 toe studs to add to my Eminent console which has only four. My console also has internal speakers and I plan to bridge the gap if I must but I am not going to be using the internal speakers. If I was I think I would find another way of doing it to be honest. For one thing my rail will be running internally across the gap and for another even though I don't imagine it would have a huge effect on the sound... ... like I said, if the plan is to keep the internal speakers functioning I would find another location for toe studs. I've only read a little of it but I think the thread Michael linked has some good insights. I don't know about standard AGO positioning of toe studs but clearly there are 'conventions'. The best way to learn these is to look at as many pictures of consoles in Google Images as you have time and stomach for. You generally want to keep toe studs as low as possible. Toe spoons are used when you have used up all the low lying real estate and still need controls for things like snare rolls and crash cymbals and pedal 32's. But you can mount standard toe studs high on the knee board if you must, you will have to peek for them while playing. You may have to peek for them anyway since most Allen and other digital's let the pedalboard run right up to the kneeboard and even the 'standard' Pedal Divisionals and General Duplications are thus on the kneeboard albeit placed as low on it as is possible. My pipe organ console at church has two rows of toe studs on either side of the expression pedals. These are not on the kneeboard They go in between the end of the pedalboard and the kneeboard. Generals 1 - 4 are duplicated on the first tier and Pedal Divisionals 1 - 4 are behind them, raised a little and offset so there is a zigzag alternation. I learned the hard way that the toe stud Pedal Divisionals do NOT duplicate the keyboard Pedal Divisionals! They have to be set independently. As I understand it, New Allen organs allow you to assign all eight pistons on one side of the expression pedals to a division but I like them split. That would be my recommendation. The auxiliary functions usually are placed higher on the kneeboard. Mostly on the right hand side. A really busy console will have some on the left. Your problem as I see it will be tying the toe studs into the combination action. Duplicating pistons might be as simple as running wires to the piston contacts. 'Bypassing' the piston controls to the auxiliary voices sounds difficult or maybe impossible. If there are dedicated contacts for these functions you may be able to 'duplicate' them. If that is what you mean by 'bypass' then you are golden.

      Comment


        #4
        Michael, thanks for the link to your thread. That does help a bit. I suspected that I might be able to hook up the general toe studs at the general pistons. I could do the same thing with the acc pistons (that also control the pedal stops), but I'd really prefer to separate the acc and pedal divisional combination action. I'm kind of wondering if I'll need to modify things on my DM-3 board.Sam
        Last edited by samibe; 06-17-2017, 07:33 PM.
        Sam
        Home: Allen ADC-4500 Church: Allen MDS-5
        Files: Allen Tone Card (TC) Database, TC Info, TC Converter, TC Mixer, ADC TC SF2, and MOS TC SF2, ADC TC Cad/Rvt, MOS TC Cad/Rvt, Organ Database, Music Library, etc. PM for unlinked files.

        Comment


          #5
          Originally posted by samibe View Post
          Michael, thanks for the link to your thread. That does help a bit. I suspected that I might be able to hook up the general toe studs at the general pistons. I could do the same thing with the acc pistons (that also control the pedal stops),....
          Sam,

          That's what the thread shows. I soldered the toe studs to the piston rail as John advised. I forget if he e-mailed me that information, or if it was in the thread. Just be careful not to accidentally disconnect any of the pistons. One of my toe studs works only after the corresponding piston has been activated at least once. On another piston, I accidentally disconnected the piston connection when adding the toe stud--now only the toe stud works. Guess them's the breaks! I just haven't had time to go back in and re-solder those connections.

          Best of luck on your endeavor.

          Michael

          P.S. I discovered the base of the pistons aren't painted black--they're dark brown instead.
          Way too many organs to list, but I do have 5 Allens:
          • MOS-2 Model 505-B / ADC-4300-DK / ADC-5400 / ADC-6000 (Symphony) / ADC-8000DKC
          • Lowrey Heritage (DSO-1)
          • 9 Pump Organs, 1 Pipe Organ & 6 Pianos

          Comment


            #6
            Leisesturm, Thanks for your response. I'm planning on using my internal speakers until I can move my organ to a more permanent home and afford to buy them. There is a 15" woofer that extends down into the area where two or three toe studs would occur on one side. The other side has a 10" speaker that does the same. I'm thinking that I could make rails that would go just a bit above the pedals with some spacers to keep the rail a ways in front of the speakers. I don't think covering an inch of the edge of the large speakers will affect their sound too much. I'll definitely test it out before making any permanent changes.
            My biggest hurdle at this point is figuring out what I need to do to separate the Acc and Ped divisions. Currently, any presets for the Acc pistons affect both Acc and Pedal stops. I would like to set it up so that the Acc pistons affect only the Acc stop tabs and the Ped division toe studs only affect pedal stops. I hope that rearranging some of the connections at the relay board or maybe to the DM-3 board would allow me to separate everything. I just don't know if a DM-3 board can handle four sets of divisional pistons.
            I do plan to duplicate the contacts for the bass drum and cymbal in the effects drawer with a couple of toe studs (if it's not too difficult).

            Sam
            Sam
            Home: Allen ADC-4500 Church: Allen MDS-5
            Files: Allen Tone Card (TC) Database, TC Info, TC Converter, TC Mixer, ADC TC SF2, and MOS TC SF2, ADC TC Cad/Rvt, MOS TC Cad/Rvt, Organ Database, Music Library, etc. PM for unlinked files.

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by samibe View Post
              . I just don't know if a DM-3 board can handle four sets of divisional pistons.
              Sam
              The ADC 4500 has a 3 division DM capture board and supports 10 general and 18 divisional ( 6 pistons * 3 divisions) pistons. That gives you 28 combinations for each of the two memories for a total of 56 combinations.

              So the answer to your questions is, no, a three division capture board does not have any additional inputs for pedal division pistons. Conceivably, you could find a 4 division DM board along with a matching 70 pin connector and wire in the pedals as a fourth division, but it will involve a bit of work.
              Last edited by Admin; 06-18-2017, 02:12 PM.
              -Admin

              Allen 965
              Zuma Group Midi Keyboard Encoder
              Zuma Group DM Midi Stop Controller
              Hauptwerk 4.2

              Comment


                #8
                Admin, thanks for your response. I was afraid of that. I'm planning to eventually add midi to my organ and it looks like your midi stop controller board will handle up to 4 divisions. So if I can find a pc board edge connector, get the midi board, figure out which stops connect where and how they need to be changed, I should be able to separate the pedal stops to their own fourth division toe studs and add midi all at the same time.

                Michael, Leisesturm, and Admin. Thanks for answering all of my questions. I will post updates and pictures as I make my modifications.

                Sam
                Sam
                Home: Allen ADC-4500 Church: Allen MDS-5
                Files: Allen Tone Card (TC) Database, TC Info, TC Converter, TC Mixer, ADC TC SF2, and MOS TC SF2, ADC TC Cad/Rvt, MOS TC Cad/Rvt, Organ Database, Music Library, etc. PM for unlinked files.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by samibe View Post
                  Admin, thanks for your response. I was afraid of that. I'm planning to eventually add midi to my organ and it looks like your midi stop controller board will handle up to 4 divisions. So if I can find a pc board edge connector, get the midi board, figure out which stops connect where and how they need to be changed, I should be able to separate the pedal stops to their own fourth division toe studs and add midi all at the same time.
                  If you go the VPO MIDI route with my board, you'll not need the additional edge connector. To be clear, the problem with your current 3 division board is primarily due to the fact that that the pedal and accompaniment stops map to the same on-board memory. When you virtualize, you'll not be dependent upon that memory, as your VPO will store the combination settings.
                  -Admin

                  Allen 965
                  Zuma Group Midi Keyboard Encoder
                  Zuma Group DM Midi Stop Controller
                  Hauptwerk 4.2

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Admin, I understand that if I do a VPO, the computer won't care which stops go where, but it would be nice if the stops and pistons function the same whether or not a VPO computer is hooked up to the organ.

                    Sam
                    Last edited by samibe; 06-18-2017, 11:16 PM.
                    Sam
                    Home: Allen ADC-4500 Church: Allen MDS-5
                    Files: Allen Tone Card (TC) Database, TC Info, TC Converter, TC Mixer, ADC TC SF2, and MOS TC SF2, ADC TC Cad/Rvt, MOS TC Cad/Rvt, Organ Database, Music Library, etc. PM for unlinked files.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      My board will allow you to do that, but you'll have to find that extra connector and move the pedal stops off their current connector to it and wire the toe pistons accordingly.
                      -Admin

                      Allen 965
                      Zuma Group Midi Keyboard Encoder
                      Zuma Group DM Midi Stop Controller
                      Hauptwerk 4.2

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Thanks Admin.

                        I was going through some of the pictures I took of everything in my organ and now I'm a little confused.
                        Here are the photos of my DM-3 board (excuse the glare my phone's lens is cracked):
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                        It looks like it says that it is a four division board and it has five 70-pin connectors connected to it. So, I'm not sure if Allen used a four division board but combined the pedal and accompaniment (because my model didn't come with toe studs) or if the board is actually a three division board but needed a sticker because it is in a four division organ.
                        If the first is true then it is just a matter of me figuring out how and where to connect everything to get it to run all four divisionals separately (once I get the toe studs installed).
                        If the second is true then I'll have to wait until I do the midi upgrade to separate the divisional controls.
                        Let me know your thoughts.

                        Sam
                        Sam
                        Home: Allen ADC-4500 Church: Allen MDS-5
                        Files: Allen Tone Card (TC) Database, TC Info, TC Converter, TC Mixer, ADC TC SF2, and MOS TC SF2, ADC TC Cad/Rvt, MOS TC Cad/Rvt, Organ Database, Music Library, etc. PM for unlinked files.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          If one adds toe switches to duplicate the same functional switches already on the console, do the console switches have to be disconnected? Can they be wired in parallel?
                          How does a new organist know how the toe switches are wired with the same name switches on the console? Is there a convention to follow?

                          Comment


                            #14
                            That's a four division board. I assume then, that they are jumping the Acc and Ped pistons inputs so that the pedal stops are controlled from the ACC pistons. If that's the case, remove the jumpers and connect your toe studs.

                            The piston inputs are on the J80 connector.

                            ACC pistons are on pins 7,8,15,16,23,24
                            Ped pistons are on pins 9.10,17,18,25,26
                            -Admin

                            Allen 965
                            Zuma Group Midi Keyboard Encoder
                            Zuma Group DM Midi Stop Controller
                            Hauptwerk 4.2

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by KOC62 View Post
                              If one adds toe switches to duplicate the same functional switches already on the console, do the console switches have to be disconnected? Can they be wired in parallel? Of course they can, and this is how they usually are.

                              How does a new organist know how the toe switches are wired with the same name switches on the console?
                              You don't. The first time you hit the toe stud for Pedal Divisional 2 expecting the same combination that you set earlier on Pedal Divisional 2 on the piston under the Great manual you will know that the inputs to the combination action are not simply paralleled, but independent. As for conventions, I don't know, what I can say from experience is that it is not common for the Pedal Division toe studs to be independent of the Pedal Division pistons. Not on Classical style consoles that is, the 'convention' for Theater style consoles may be different.

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