Originally posted by Leisesturm
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Adding toe studs to an Allen ADC-4500
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Originally posted by Admin View PostOn the Allens I'm familiar with, there only studs for the pedal division, no divisional pistons.
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Thanks again Admin.
I'll check on how the accomp and pedal were combined and report back.
SamSam
Home: Allen ADC-4500 Church: Allen MDS-5
Files: Allen Tone Card (TC) Database, TC Info, TC Converter, TC Mixer, ADC TC SF2, and MOS TC SF2, ADC TC Cad/Rvt, MOS TC Cad/Rvt, Organ Database, Music Library, etc. PM for unlinked files.
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The reason I was asking is because our Johannus Opus 1100 church organ has added (i.e not original) toe switches for SW-GR, GR-PED and SW-PED. On the console the same name switches are also there. I haven't verified the wiring but suspect they're wired in parallel. Hence the question of how a visiting organist would use them if it's not a conventional way to wire them this way. How else would it be done if the organ has no other place to detect the toe switches?
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Originally posted by Leisesturm View PostYou don't. The first time you hit the toe stud for Pedal Divisional 2 expecting the same combination that you set earlier on Pedal Divisional 2 on the piston under the Great manual you will know that the inputs to the combination action are not simply paralleled, but independent. As for conventions, I don't know, what I can say from experience is that it is not common for the Pedal Division toe studs to be independent of the Pedal Division pistons. Not on Classical style consoles that is, the 'convention' for Theater style consoles may be different.
Originally posted by Admin View PostOn the Allens I'm familiar with, there only studs for the pedal division, no divisional pistons.
I'm sure I'm wrong, but I hope that helps people find the information they need.
Michael
P.S. The ADC-4600 indicates it can have MIDI, so I'm not sure where you stand there. Probably Admin's product would work best for you.Way too many organs to list, but I do have 5 Allens:- MOS-2 Model 505-B / ADC-4300-DK / ADC-5400 / ADC-6000 (Symphony) / ADC-8000DKC
- Lowrey Heritage (DSO-1)
- 9 Pump Organs, 1 Pipe Organ & 6 Pianos
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Originally posted by myorgan View PostAFIK, all Pedal Divisional pistons are separate from the Great.
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Project update:
I removed the speaker cover screen to see how much room there is for toe stud rails. The knee board has been finished really well. It is a bit sun-bleached so it looks like it has tan lines.
I've decided that I like how the organ looks without the speaker cover. So, after I get the stud rails made and installed, I'm going to make individual black speaker covers just to protect the speakers.
So far I've made the stud rails out of poplar and cut them into an Allen-esque shape. I've laid out the pistons and I can get 15 pistons to fit on one row (8 on the left and 7 on the right). I am going to start with 10 pistons (5 on each side) but place them so that I can add more later. I am currently working on covering the poplar with a 1/16" thick walnut veneer.
The stud rails will cover about 5/8" of the woofer on the right and about 1/4" of the two lower speakers on the left. It shouldn't affect the sound too much (I hope). We'll see how far I can get this weekend.Sam
Home: Allen ADC-4500 Church: Allen MDS-5
Files: Allen Tone Card (TC) Database, TC Info, TC Converter, TC Mixer, ADC TC SF2, and MOS TC SF2, ADC TC Cad/Rvt, MOS TC Cad/Rvt, Organ Database, Music Library, etc. PM for unlinked files.
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Originally posted by samibe View PostThe stud rails will cover about 5/8" of the woofer on the right and about 1/4" of the two lower speakers on the left. It shouldn't affect the sound too much (I hope). We'll see how far I can get this weekend.
Forgive me for stating the obvious, but be sure your toe studs on the far left and right do not go too far over the pedals. In other words, account for the extra distance the toe studs will stick out past the wooden rail. Otherwise, you'll accidentally hit them on the way by--and that's not necessarily a good thing.
Also, when extending the wooden rail over the speaker enclosure, make sure your rail doesn't impede the excursion of the speaker surround when fully extended. That could possibly result in distortion.
MichaelWay too many organs to list, but I do have 5 Allens:- MOS-2 Model 505-B / ADC-4300-DK / ADC-5400 / ADC-6000 (Symphony) / ADC-8000DKC
- Lowrey Heritage (DSO-1)
- 9 Pump Organs, 1 Pipe Organ & 6 Pianos
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Michael,
Thanks for helping me see what I should watch out for. I think I will only have enough time this weekend to get the stud rails finished and the toe studs mounted (no wiring yet). I figure that I can try them out and if they are sticking out too far, then I can remove some wood from the back of the rails. If they aren't sticking out enough, then I can add some spacers to the back. Although, I'm pretty sure I have them positioned on the too-far-out side of about right.
As far as the speakers are concerned, they are mounted to the back of the knee-board. I don't think any of them have 3/4" excursion, but I will verify that. If I find issues while experimenting with the toe stud position then I can make some room for the speakers. I also want to check if the mid-range speakers are significantly affected by the rails partially covering them. We'll see how it goes. I'll post some pictures when I get everything in.Last edited by samibe; 07-01-2017, 10:49 PM.Sam
Home: Allen ADC-4500 Church: Allen MDS-5
Files: Allen Tone Card (TC) Database, TC Info, TC Converter, TC Mixer, ADC TC SF2, and MOS TC SF2, ADC TC Cad/Rvt, MOS TC Cad/Rvt, Organ Database, Music Library, etc. PM for unlinked files.
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Originally posted by samibe View PostMichael, thanks for helping me see what I should watch out for. I think I will only have enough time this weekend to get the stud rails finished and the toe studs mounted (no wiring yet). I figure that I can try them out and if they are sticking out too far, then I can remove some wood from the back of the rails. If they aren't sticking out enough, then I can add some spacers to the back. Although, I'm pretty sure I have them positioned on the too-far-out side of about right.As far as the speakers are concerned, they are mounted to the back of the knee-board. I don't think any of them have 3/4" excursion, but I will verify that. If I find issues while experimenting with the toe stud position then I can make some room for the speakers. I also want to check if the mid-range speakers are significantly affected by the rails partially covering them. We'll see how it goes. I'll post some pictures when I get everything in.
Make sure the hole you drill through the toe stud board is large enough for the wires to go through. You will want to either make sure the toe stud wires currently connected are long enough to go through the mounting board, or not mount the studs until you have the wires soldered. You'll notice on my thread, I soldered the toe studs and verified they worked before screwing them on.
Regarding the speakers, there is a quick way to check. The woofers are the only ones that might have enough excursion to be affected, and to test them you can briefly place a 9v battery across the terminals of the woofer ONLY (not mid or tweeter). You will need to have someone help you test the woofer. Make sure the organ is off.
Also, please wait for the experts to weigh in before you test the speaker using this method. I want to make sure you don't damage any circuits inside the organ by doing it. I've only tested external speakers when they were unhooked--never connected.
Hope this helps a little more.
Michael
P.S. On some recent organs I've seen, Allen only has the mounting board on the far end of the toe stud rail, and then 1 or 2 are mounted to the face of the organ, closer to the center. Don't know if that's an option or not.Way too many organs to list, but I do have 5 Allens:- MOS-2 Model 505-B / ADC-4300-DK / ADC-5400 / ADC-6000 (Symphony) / ADC-8000DKC
- Lowrey Heritage (DSO-1)
- 9 Pump Organs, 1 Pipe Organ & 6 Pianos
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I'm planning on routing a slot in the back of the toe stud rails and running all of the toe stud wires in it and through a single hole in the kneeboard. I'm considering running wires from the relay/DM board through the knee board and then soldering to toe studs to those once they are mounted. I pre-drilled the holes for the wires before I put the veneer on the rails.
Here are some pictures before I painted the rails,
After they were finished,
and with them resting on the pedalboard. They match the rest of the organ (except that the finish is older and has yellowed a bit on the organ).
I didn't have as much time to work on it this weekend as I thought. So, I didn't get the rails and toe studs mounted to the kneeboard. Next time I get to work on it, I should be able to get everything mounted and ready to solder.Sam
Home: Allen ADC-4500 Church: Allen MDS-5
Files: Allen Tone Card (TC) Database, TC Info, TC Converter, TC Mixer, ADC TC SF2, and MOS TC SF2, ADC TC Cad/Rvt, MOS TC Cad/Rvt, Organ Database, Music Library, etc. PM for unlinked files.
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I had a chance to work on my organ again last weekend. I routed a slot into the back of the toe stud rails that will give me some flexibility when it comes to running the wires from the studs to the relay/DM board. I mounted the toe studs to the rails and mounted the rails to the organ. The picture also shows the rings for the new speaker covers I made. The speaker covers were finished and mounted, but I forgot to take a picture of it. Eventually, I will add two more studs on the right and three more on the left. I did some practicing to make sure the toe studs are not in the way of the pedals. They definitely were not in the way, but I almost wish they were a half inch higher on the kneeboard or a quarter inch further out. I may tweak the studrails' position a little bit the next time I get to work on my organ.
I did some more searching around the organ and found the relay(?) board that seems to have the signal from the Acc/Ped pistons split to the Acc and Ped input on the DM board. The thicker dark blue wire should be the signal from the Acc/Ped pistons. Attached to the Acc/Ped pegs are some yellow and red wires that seem to run to the DM board.
Attached to the Solo pins are some thin blue wires and attached to the Great pins are some thin green wires. If I'm understanding the third picture correctly,
Red: 5, 6, 13, 14, 21, and 22
Green (Great?): 7, 8, 15, 16, 23, and 24
Blue (Solo?): 9, 10, 17, 18, 25, and 26
Yellow: 11, 12, 19, 20, 27, and 28
and I just need to figure out if Red controls the Pedal stops or if Yellow does. Then it should be a matter of running the toe stud leads to the Ped pins, clipping or unsoldering the pedal wires, and extending/soldering them to the Ped pins.
To figure out which wire controls which division I could set a divisional preset (with both Ped and Acc stops), press cancel, turn off the organ, unsolder one wire from that preset (yellow) and insulate the end, turn the organ back on, hit the preset and see which tabs are activated? If the Acc tabs are activated, then I would know that the Yellow wires run the Pedal division. If the Ped tabs are activated then I would know that the Red wires control the Pedal division. Are there any issues with this test that I missed?
Admin, it's interesting that Allen seems to have wired the pistons to the J80 connector exactly opposite of your description in post #14. Why would they have done that? Is it just that the actual order is less critical than keeping every division separate?Sam
Home: Allen ADC-4500 Church: Allen MDS-5
Files: Allen Tone Card (TC) Database, TC Info, TC Converter, TC Mixer, ADC TC SF2, and MOS TC SF2, ADC TC Cad/Rvt, MOS TC Cad/Rvt, Organ Database, Music Library, etc. PM for unlinked files.
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Originally posted by samibe View PostAttached to the Solo pins are some thin blue wires and attached to the Great pins are some thin green wires. If I'm understanding the third picture correctly,
Red: 5, 6, 13, 14, 21, and 22
Green (Great?): 7, 8, 15, 16, 23, and 24
Blue (Solo?): 9, 10, 17, 18, 25, and 26
Yellow: 11, 12, 19, 20, 27, and 28
and I just need to figure out if Red controls the Pedal stops or if Yellow does. Then it should be a matter of running the toe stud leads to the Ped pins, clipping or unsoldering the pedal wires, and extending/soldering them to the Ped pins.
To figure out which wire controls which division I could set a divisional preset (with both Ped and Acc stops), press cancel, turn off the organ, unsolder one wire from that preset (yellow) and insulate the end, turn the organ back on, hit the preset and see which tabs are activated? If the Acc tabs are activated, then I would know that the Yellow wires run the Pedal division. If the Ped tabs are activated then I would know that the Red wires control the Pedal division. Are there any issues with this test that I missed?
Admin, it's interesting that Allen seems to have wired the pistons to the J80 connector exactly opposite of your description in post #14. Why would they have done that? Is it just that the actual order is less critical than keeping every division separate?
Red wire pins: Swell
Green wire pins: Choir
Blue wire pins: Pedal
Yellow wire pins: Great
Wire colors don't appear on the diagram, only pin numbers, so this mapping is based on the pin numbers and their respective wire colors as provided by you.
Allen may have used different mappings for two manual organs. On my three manual theatre model
Great = Great
Acc = Choir
Solo = Swell
Ped = Ped
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Admin, thanks for your mapping description. I still need to double check wire locations and circuits with my multimeter. If it turns out that the wire and pin order on my organ is different than your diagram, would that be an issue? or would it still function the same as long as the input pins map to the corresponding output plug? (divisional pins 5, 6, 13, 14, 21, and 22 (on J80) map to stop control plug J8(?) on the DM board which controls the same division's stops)Sam
Home: Allen ADC-4500 Church: Allen MDS-5
Files: Allen Tone Card (TC) Database, TC Info, TC Converter, TC Mixer, ADC TC SF2, and MOS TC SF2, ADC TC Cad/Rvt, MOS TC Cad/Rvt, Organ Database, Music Library, etc. PM for unlinked files.
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Originally posted by samibe View PostIf it turns out that the wire and pin order on my organ is different than your diagram, would that be an issue? or would it still function the same as long as the input pins map to the corresponding output plug? (divisional pins 5, 6, 13, 14, 21, and 22 (on J80) map to stop control plug J8(?) on the DM board which controls the same division's stops)
Again, on my model (determined empirically):
J81 - Pedal
J82 - Accomp
J83 - Great
J84 - SoloLast edited by Admin; 08-01-2017, 07:16 AM.
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