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Adding toe studs to an Allen ADC-4500

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    #31
    Originally posted by samibe View Post
    I had a chance to work on my organ again last weekend. I routed a slot into the back of the toe stud rails that will give me some flexibility when it comes to running the wires from the studs to the relay/DM board.
    Sam,

    Forgive my ignorance, but couldn't you just wire them to the corresponding piston on the piston rail? That's what I did with my ADC-4300, and except for a few mistakes soldering (I still need to fix), the new toe studs work great! Just a thought.

    I tried tracing pins on the rail you pictured, but there was so little documentation for my organ, I was unable to wire them to that rail reliably--so I opted for the pistons.

    Michael
    Way too many organs to list, but I do have 5 Allens:
    • MOS-2 Model 505-B / ADC-4300-DK / ADC-5400 / ADC-6000 (Symphony) / ADC-8000DKC
    • Lowrey Heritage (DSO-1)
    • 9 Pump Organs, 1 Pipe Organ & 4 Pianos

    Comment


      #32
      Michael,

      I'm planning on doing that for the general pistons that I will double with some of the toe studs. I'll wire the general toe studs as a second switch to the general pistons the same way you did in your thread.

      Currently, my Acc divisional pistons run both the Acc and Ped stops, but it seems to do it by sending the same signal to both the Acc and Ped divisions (which are separate) on the DM board. I don't want to just duplicate the Acc/Ped pistons with the other toe studs. I want to separate them so that the Acc pistons run only the Acc division stops and the divisional toe studs run only the Pedal division stops. It's looking more and more like it is a matter of running the divisional toe stud wires to the Pedal division pins (which currently have nothing wired to them) on the relay board (see picture) and then moving the "Ped to DM board" wires (red or yellow wires in second picture) from the Acc/Ped pins to the Ped pins on the relay board.
      Click image for larger version

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      It might also be possible after I've figured out the divisional wiring to run the general toe stud wires to General pins on the relay board (which might keep things cleaner behind the piston rails).

      I don't have much information about the relay board either, but I'm planning on checking several things with my multimeter to make sure I'm understanding the wiring correctly. Maybe by the end of this project I'll be able to put together a wiring diagram for piston to DM board wiring.
      Sam
      Home: Allen ADC-4500 Church: Allen MDS-5
      Files: Allen Tone Card (TC) Database, TC Info, TC Converter, TC Mixer, ADC TC SF2, and MOS TC SF2, ADC TC Cad/Rvt, MOS TC Cad/Rvt, Organ Database, Music Library, etc. PM for unlinked files.

      Comment


        #33
        I had a chance this weekend to run some tests on my DM board. I figured out why it is a four division DM board but has the Acc and Ped divisions combined. As it turns out the percussion stops (that can be played by the Acc or Ped) are controlled by the fourth division plug J84 (along with several general tabs). I also worked out which stops correspond to which pin sets on J81 (Acc and Ped) and J84 (Percussion and Misc) plugs.

        So, it looks like it will be a little more than just moving wires around on the relay board. I'll have to do that, but I'm also thinking of switching all of the pedal stops on J81 and the Acc percussion stops on J84. I think there will be enough pins and it wont mess up the Misc stops. Before I get that far, I will need to figure out a few other things. I'll post my findings when I have a chance to enter them into excel and fill in the gaps.
        Sam
        Home: Allen ADC-4500 Church: Allen MDS-5
        Files: Allen Tone Card (TC) Database, TC Info, TC Converter, TC Mixer, ADC TC SF2, and MOS TC SF2, ADC TC Cad/Rvt, MOS TC Cad/Rvt, Organ Database, Music Library, etc. PM for unlinked files.

        Comment


          #34
          Alright here are the results of my DM board tests.
          J80 - Input
          J81 - Acc/Ped
          J82 - Great
          J83 - Solo
          J84 - Perc and Misc

          J80 front and back (showing most of the jumpers (ties in the spreadsheet)).
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          Spreadsheet data for J80, J81, and J84.
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          I need to look at my notes again about J84 because I'm off somewhere on my spreadsheet. I'm not sure if the Celeste Tuning tab is on pins 29/30 or 27/28. I'm planning on moving some of the Acc percussions from J84 to J81 and moving the Pedal stops from J81 to J84.
          Some of the pins on J84 are not controlled by divisional pistons (Celeste and Trems). If I were to rearrange the stops on J84 and move the General stops (Celeste and Trems) to different pins, would they still change with only the general pistons or would they start changing with divisional pistons too?

          If I were to trade stops between J81 and J84, do I also need to make sure that the divisional wires from the SAMs Power Supply also go to the correct (traded) stops?

          P.S. The plug division and stops on each plug were determined empirically. I found out that if I unplugged one of the division plugs (J81-J84), turned on the organ and pushed Cancel, all of the stops in the unplugged division would go down and all of the other stops would go up. I also found out that by jumping a pair of stop pins on a plug and pressing cancel caused that particular stop to stay active while all of the others were cancelled. (If I jumped pins 5 and 6 on J81 and pressed cancel, then the Pedal 16' Tuba tab stayed down and all the rest cancelled.)

          Edit: Celeste tuning is at 27/28 and 29/30 is an unknown stop (It might be a fillerblock or the blank tab next to the Celeste tuning that is not controlled by the CA).
          Last edited by samibe; 08-28-2017, 05:04 PM.
          Sam
          Home: Allen ADC-4500 Church: Allen MDS-5
          Files: Allen Tone Card (TC) Database, TC Info, TC Converter, TC Mixer, ADC TC SF2, and MOS TC SF2, ADC TC Cad/Rvt, MOS TC Cad/Rvt, Organ Database, Music Library, etc. PM for unlinked files.

          Comment


            #35
            Sam,

            I'm not sure it will help, but I can send you a stop/piston matrix for one of my organs, which might shed some light on the subject. Let me know if you're interested.

            Michael
            Last edited by myorgan; 10-29-2017, 07:46 PM.
            Way too many organs to list, but I do have 5 Allens:
            • MOS-2 Model 505-B / ADC-4300-DK / ADC-5400 / ADC-6000 (Symphony) / ADC-8000DKC
            • Lowrey Heritage (DSO-1)
            • 9 Pump Organs, 1 Pipe Organ & 4 Pianos

            Comment


              #36
              Thanks Michael. I'm very interested and I would really appreciate it.

              I keep taking pictures and trying to figure out how my ADC works. It seems like every time I open it up and take more pictures I learn something new about it and then need more pictures to answer new questions. It does seem to yield its secrets with effort. So, I keep at it.
              Sam
              Home: Allen ADC-4500 Church: Allen MDS-5
              Files: Allen Tone Card (TC) Database, TC Info, TC Converter, TC Mixer, ADC TC SF2, and MOS TC SF2, ADC TC Cad/Rvt, MOS TC Cad/Rvt, Organ Database, Music Library, etc. PM for unlinked files.

              Comment


                #37
                I had a chance to do some more work on the toe stud and DM board wiring this weekend.

                I also decided that I want to run all of the pedal division stops and percussions from J84 and accomp division stops and percussions with J81. I determined that the yellow wires from the Acc/Ped pins on the relay board to the DM board were the ones that controlled J84. I cut and moved the yellow wires to the Pedal pins on the relay board. I also figured out where to wire the ground for the toe studs and ran some preliminary tests to make sure my plan would work.


                I ran wires from the toe stud rails to the relay board for the divisional and general toe studs. I plan on putting a plug on the end of the wires at the studrails that all of the toe studs can be plugged into. It should make it easier to try some different toe stud layouts. I didn't have quite enough time this weekend to get all of the wires soldered to the relay board or all of the plugs put together.

                Once I get all of the toe stud to relay board wiring setup and functioning, I will start working on moving the pedal percussion and general stops around on J84, moving pedal stops to J84, and moving the accomp percussion to J81. The tricky part there is that I'm going to have to very meticulously add extensions to pedal stops from J81 to get them down to J84. I also need to figure out how to get the tight coil wraps off the the J81 and J84 pins (or just cut the wires at the coils).

                Does anyone know what gauge the wires are to the DM board? They seem to be a solid core mid-20s gauge wire with fairly thin insulation. I keep forgetting to bring my calipers. So, I haven't measured the wires, yet.
                Sam
                Home: Allen ADC-4500 Church: Allen MDS-5
                Files: Allen Tone Card (TC) Database, TC Info, TC Converter, TC Mixer, ADC TC SF2, and MOS TC SF2, ADC TC Cad/Rvt, MOS TC Cad/Rvt, Organ Database, Music Library, etc. PM for unlinked files.

                Comment


                  #38
                  Quick update: I have all of the toe studs mounted to the rails and all of the leads to the toe studs wired. I zip-tied the leads together so that they will stay in the grooves better when I mount the rails to the organ. Also, I have the pin headers ready for the wires to the relay board. As soon as those are wired, I will be able to control the percussion stops with the divisional toe studs until I get the stops moved around on J81 and J84.
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                  Sam
                  Home: Allen ADC-4500 Church: Allen MDS-5
                  Files: Allen Tone Card (TC) Database, TC Info, TC Converter, TC Mixer, ADC TC SF2, and MOS TC SF2, ADC TC Cad/Rvt, MOS TC Cad/Rvt, Organ Database, Music Library, etc. PM for unlinked files.

                  Comment


                    #39
                    Apparently, it has been a while since I worked on this project. Time for an update.

                    I finally had some time this week to work on this more extensive modification. I had wired all of the toe studs to some short leads in the previous post but I didn't feel comfortable with the size of wire I used (30ga stranded). I was mainly afraid that if they got pulled very much that the strands might break inside the insulation and I might get shorts that would be hard to isolate and troubleshoot. As a result I got some 24ga wire to run from the toe studs to the capture pin board (what I was calling the relay board previously). I had little plugs wired to the toe stud leads because I thought it might make it easier to remove the stud rails and make repairs. I ended up scrapping that idea and direct soldering the new wires to the toe studs (I don't need another failure point and I'm not going to be removing these things any time soon).

                    I routed the new wires to the pin board and ran a few continuity tests to make sure I had the right wires going to the right pins. I have eight toe studs on the left of the expression shoes and seven on the right. I decided to duplicate generals 4-10 on the left and have pedal divisionals 1-6 on the right. This leaves one extra toe stud on the left and the right. I'm not completely sure what to do with those ones. I'm torn between using them as a bass drum and cymbal crash effect (or specific 32' stops) on a VPO or wiring them up as a switch to turn pages on a tablet. So right now they don't do anything but the wires are run so I just have to make connections once I make up my mind.

                    Now for the time consuming and tricky part. I wanted to move stops around on the DM board. I wanted all of the pedal stops (along with the generals and pedal percussions) on J84 and all of the accomp stops (and accomp percussions) on the J81. I decided the easiest way to do this was to cut each green and white wire to each of the stops that were going to trade in such a way that they could easily be switched and spliced cleanly. I switched 8 stops (between J84 and J81) and had to add wires to J84 for the four pedal couplers. To keep all of the wires straight, I taped each green and white pair (that was going to be cut) together with a two tape tags (one on each side of where I wanted to cut the wires). The tag closest to the plug was labeled with the plug pin numbers. The tag on the other side of the cut was labeled with the plug number and pin numbers that it was going to be moved to. Then I cut the wires and began the slow process of matching up tape labels, stripping wires, and soldering the wires together, and adding heat shrink tubing over the joint. It took a couple hours and I'm a little sore (from having to crouch behind the organ to do all of this) but I managed to not cross any wires and it looks and works great.
                    Last edited by samibe; 07-09-2019, 10:30 PM.
                    Sam
                    Home: Allen ADC-4500 Church: Allen MDS-5
                    Files: Allen Tone Card (TC) Database, TC Info, TC Converter, TC Mixer, ADC TC SF2, and MOS TC SF2, ADC TC Cad/Rvt, MOS TC Cad/Rvt, Organ Database, Music Library, etc. PM for unlinked files.

                    Comment


                      #40
                      At this point the accomp stops would move with the accomp pistons and the pedal percussions would move with the toe studs (but the accomp percussions and pedal stops would only move with the generals). This is because I needed to switch some wiring from the capture power supply to the SAMs. Each cluster of stops has a twisted pair of wires (ground and signal) from the capture power supply that provides the pulse to drive the SAMs (there is also a pair orange/brown that goes between each stop in the cluster). On my organ, the pedal and accomp (J81) were driven by a red/brown pair, the great (J82) by a green/brown pair, the solo (J83) by a blue/brown pair, the percussions (J84) by a yellow/brown pair, and the generals (also J84) by a white/brown pair. I initially thought that I would need to run two or three new wires from the capture power supply to the stops that had been moved (or at least run a few wires between the groups) but there were separate red/brown pairs for the pedal stops and accomp stops. There was only one yellow/brown pair to the percussion stops. This meant that I only had to switch one of the red wires with the yellow wire to drive the pedal and accomp stops separately. Doing this would drive the pedal percussion stops with the accomp pistons. I cut the pair of driver wires (orange/brown) that went between the accomp and pedal percussions and added a new pair of wires from capture power supply to the pedal percussion stops. With that switch complete, all of the pedal stops (including percussions) can be run with the divisional toe studs and all of the accomp stops (including percussions) can be run by the accomp pistons.
                      Sam
                      Home: Allen ADC-4500 Church: Allen MDS-5
                      Files: Allen Tone Card (TC) Database, TC Info, TC Converter, TC Mixer, ADC TC SF2, and MOS TC SF2, ADC TC Cad/Rvt, MOS TC Cad/Rvt, Organ Database, Music Library, etc. PM for unlinked files.

                      Comment


                      • samibe
                        samibe commented
                        Editing a comment
                        I also learned that the sense and control wires (green and white) as well as the wiring to the multiplexer board (multicolored) are all 26ga solid core silver wire. (At least I know it's not copper or gold). The wiring to the pistons is 24ga solid core. The wiring to the SAMs from the capture power supply is 22ga stranded unless the wires are only driving a few (less than 6) stops then it is 24ga.

                      #41
                      If there is anything you need in the way of documentation, I have a 4500 I'm working on - adding MIDI to all 4 divisions. I picked up an Allen ADC service manual on Ebay that's a real treasure trove.
                      I also learned that blank spots on the back stop rail are actually wired for stops, and will produce outputs on the Multiplex board. I used this to make the organ MIDI capable on any division with a settable tab.
                      Can't play an note but love all things "organ" Responsible for 2/10 Wurli pipe organ, Allen 3160(wife's), Allen LL324, Allen GW319EX, ADC4600, many others. E-organ shop to fund free organ lessons for kids.

                      Comment


                      • samibe
                        samibe commented
                        Editing a comment
                        I noticed the extra wiring behind the wood spacer blocks and figured that it was for additional stops. An ADC tech manual would be an awesome resource but I do have most of the technical sheets for my organ. The deeper I get into the organ the more it makes sense. It's not an impossibly complex machine. I would like to see pictures of how you implemented the MIDI on your 4500.

                      #42
                      I'm waiting for new tabs from Arndt Organ supply. I 'll post pictures when it's all done. I'm even thinking of adding Bluetooth for using external sound sources to play through the console.
                      Can't play an note but love all things "organ" Responsible for 2/10 Wurli pipe organ, Allen 3160(wife's), Allen LL324, Allen GW319EX, ADC4600, many others. E-organ shop to fund free organ lessons for kids.

                      Comment


                      • samibe
                        samibe commented
                        Editing a comment
                        Adding bluetooth would be fun. I'm starting to wish I could run other audio through the organ's speakers (we don't have decent audio upstairs in our house. I've also thought of going the other way and adding a bluetooth transmitter inside the organ to send a reverb signal to some satellite bluetooth speakers (when I'm not using my headphones).
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