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Question re: where to place a String Celeste Speaker when isolating Celestes

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  • Question re: where to place a String Celeste Speaker when isolating Celestes

    (Not sure if this is best placed in general electronic organs or theater organs. Admin, feel free to reclassify)

    I have a question about where to place a String Celeste Speaker when isolating Celestes

    Several people recommended that an easy improvement I can make to my analog Rodgers 340 Theater organ is to separate the String Celeste from the Strings on the Main Channel so that each appear on their own speaker.

    I've determined how to remove the Celeste signal from the Main Channel and I will re-use my unused Leslie interface (formerly used for flutes but since disconnected) to provide expression to the celeste signal before sending it on to the amplifier and speaker.

    I have two questions:
    1. First question has to do with the new celeste speaker. Should this be in any specific location relative to the main channel speaker which has the strings? (i.e. Can I simply place it near the Main speaker or does it have to be a certain distance for effect?) What's recommended to experience the celeste effect?

    2. I assume the the benefit is to have the celeste on its own speaker. Otherwise, the Rodgers engineers could have simply routed String into Main (as it is now) and Celeste into Solo (Tibia CH) for separation? Or would they not do that because those have different expression controls? (

    Bonus question
    3. Since I am splitting out the string celeste from the Main Channel, would it make sense to also split out the Flute from this channel and route it to a combination Celest/flute channel? Both would share the same expression circuit/amplifier/speaker. (Right now they are included in the Main Channel; if I spelt them out they could be in another location.


    Most interested in the answers to all three so I can learn, but I realize that is a lot to ask, so if you have interest and opinions but limited time, I would settle for feedback on #1

    Thanks.

    Eric Mack
    Eric Mack
    www.ThisOld340.com
    Rodgers 340 S/N 34341
    Los Angeles, CA

  • #2
    1. Common sense says the celeste and non-celeste (unison) channels should be equal distance from the listener to maintain balance. Close to each other is OK but not really essential. The celeste effect is best when combined in air rather than as electrical signals, since any cancellation caused by the celeste is absolute as an electrical signal, but only partial when in the air because of complicated phase angles produced by the listening environment.

    2. They would not have put the celeste and unison ranks under different expression--no way to keep the two in balance when expressing the solo louder than the main or vice versa.

    3. Flute and celeste could be combined into the same channel, but I think I would not do so. Rodgers often combined such voices in their classical instruments, so you could try it and see if the results are satisfactory.

    If you have the usual complement of speakers for the 340, I would suggest using the Klipsh LaScala for the Tibia channel, instead of the brass, and using one of the M13's for the brass channel. The LaScala design was intended to be a high efficiency system with smooth frequency response across the entire audio spectrum. Tibia's need that more than the brass voices, and the M13's are entirely efficient enough for the brass.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by toodles View Post
      1. Common sense says the celeste and non-celeste (unison) channels should be equal distance from the listener to maintain balance. Close to each other is OK but not really essential. The celeste effect is best when combined in air rather than as electrical signals, since any cancellation caused by the celeste is absolute as an electrical signal, but only partial when in the air because of complicated phase angles produced by the listening environment.
      Toodles,

      Two questions/observations come to mind. With my Allen 505B, I've always been advised to place the two speakers carrying the main and celeste sound right next to each other for maximum effect. I had originally wanted to place the two speakers in opposite corners of the room, but was advised I'd lose the celeste effect. To date, I've always followed that rule and the result has been good. I'm not familiar with Rodgers' method of producing celestes, but I would have assumed it would be similar in theory.

      The Rodgers (classical--Scarborough 220) I played for years had a Flute Celeste on it. If I'm not mistaken, the speakers producing both parts of the celeste were in the same speaker bank. Would it have been the same practice with the Rodgers theatre models? The Flute Celeste on the Great was one of my favorite stops on that old analog organ!

      Michael
      Way too many organs to list, but I do have 5 Allens:
      • MOS-2 Model 505-B / ADC-4300-DK / ADC-5400 / ADC-6000 (Symphony) / ADC-8000DKC
      • Lowrey Heritage (DSO-1)
      • 11 Pump Organs, 1 Pipe Organ & 7 Pianos

      Comment


      • #4
        Thank you, Toodles for another helpful and educational response.

        Here is my action plan, based on what you have shared.

        1. I will remove only the String CELESTE signal from the Main Channel and route it into the Leslie interface, which will provide me with expression. (I have already removed the Leslie and the 120 VAC relay, etc. I am only using the Leslie interface for its ability to provide expression control over the Celeste signal.)

        2. I will leave the string signal on the Main Channel.

        Here's what I have for speakers. Feedback welcome on what to swap, where

        MAIN Channel Rodgers RW3 4" from wall (I understand from this forum, it is not ideal, but that's what I have)

        TIBIA (Solo) Channel Rodgers RW3 4": from same wall 8' away (I understand from this forum, it is not ideal, but that's what I have)

        BRASS Channel Rodgers M10? (8 x 8" round + one 075 JBL tweeter) on top of ent center facing up to sloped ceiling for dispersion

        CELESTE Channel Rodgers M10? (8 x 8" round ) will try to place across room for celeste effect (thanks for the tip)

        PEDAL BSR 15" Subwoofer from DAK on flow under piano facing into corner of room for dispersion
        (Yes, that DAK) until I can get something better. It does quite well in my small living room for now.

        REVERB L + R Using two bookshelf speakers, on top of bookshelf, facing up to ceiling for dispersion. From Alexis Microverb.
        Based on your celeste comment, I may try to move these to rear of room. Not sue it matters in a 20x20 room.

        BENCH I plan to eventually mount two transducer pucks for when I practice with headphones and disable all speakers


        AMPLIFIERS
        Almost all were bad when I received them. I removed all of the TA-50 and S-100 Amps for now and I am using a 6x100 Watt amp from Parts Express.
        For the PEDAL and BENCH Channels I am using two 100 Watt Subwoofer maps from eBay. (For now, low budget)


        OTHER SPEAKERS
        For many reasons, this is a very low budget hobby right now, so I am making do with the speakers I received or have cobbled together for now.

        Speaker position is not optimal but a balance between speakers in current position or no speakers. :-) So, I can swap what goes where, but probably cannot move the speakers.

        In terms of unused speakers that could be used/swapped in the above, I have another Rodgers M13 (12 x 8" round + one 075 JBL tweeter) Too big for house, but I could pull parts from (e.g. tweeter), and I also have what appears to be an M10 look-alike with 4 8" speakers and 4 plastic tweeters. This is small enough I could get it into the house and may use it for Celeste because it has the tweeters.
        Eric Mack
        www.ThisOld340.com
        Rodgers 340 S/N 34341
        Los Angeles, CA

        Comment


        • #5
          The supposed 8 inch speakers are probably 6x9 oval units--I don't know of any vintage Rodgers cabinets that used 8 inch round speakers.

          For the speakers you have it probably doesn't make much difference which type is used on the different channels--they'll all have a sound character that is similar. The M10 "look-alike" ought to work fine for the celeste channel. The plastic tweeters are piezo tweeters--not my favorite, but they work.

          The JBL 075 ring radiator horn made no sense to me in any of the Rodgers designs--it's a very expensive speaker, and fine for it's intended purpose, but that purpose is for a short throw, limited dispersion application. I suspect Rodgers used them because they were owned by CBS Musical Products for a while (prior to Steinway Musical Properties) which also owned JBL. Rodgers probably got them at a heavy discount. It's advantage for Rodgers was probably it's rugged design--and they got to say they used JBL speakers.

          The RW3 design, although not an exceptional design, did have a really fine woofer with smooth response. So although a competent speaker designer wouldn't build the RW3, it performs pretty well because of the high quality drivers it uses. When I owned some, I contacted JBL pro to see if they could recommend improvements--they suggested a very find mid/high horn be used with the woofers and a JBL crossover. That would have been about $1200 at the time, so I didn't do it. I'm sure the results would have been excellent.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by myorgan View Post
            Toodles,

            Two questions/observations come to mind. With my Allen 505B, I've always been advised to place the two speakers carrying the main and celeste sound right next to each other for maximum effect. I had originally wanted to place the two speakers in opposite corners of the room, but was advised I'd lose the celeste effect. To date, I've always followed that rule and the result has been good. I'm not familiar with Rodgers' method of producing celestes, but I would have assumed it would be similar in theory.

            The Rodgers (classical--Scarborough 220) I played for years had a Flute Celeste on it. If I'm not mistaken, the speakers producing both parts of the celeste were in the same speaker bank. Would it have been the same practice with the Rodgers theatre models? The Flute Celeste on the Great was one of my favorite stops on that old analog organ!

            Michael
            With speakers side-by-side it pretty much assures the sound is equal distance to the listener, so balance is assured. With Allen there were fewer voicing adjustments so you couldn't just raise the celeste voice or unison if needed without upsetting the balance of the other voices. On Rodgers each voice was adjustable for volume, so any imbalance could have been evened out, so it was probably less important.

            Having the two sources adjacent also mimics pipe organ sound, since the two sources are almost always very close in the chamber of a pipe organ, though the pipes are not usually right next to each other on the same chest--they tend to pull each other to the same tuning when that is done.

            For Rodgers, the Scarborough was Model 750, and the 220 was either Specification 220 or Cambridge 220. On the 750 and Cambridge 220, the Great Flute celeste did not mix the celeste in with the flute voice, but mixed it in with the Diapason/Principal. On the Swell, the Viola Celeste mixed the celeste part in with the unit Troimpette and the unison rank was the Swell Principal which had its own audio channel. So no mixing of unison and celeste in the same audio channel on those models. The 340 was an exception but it should have separated out the celeste from the unison.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by toodles View Post
              The supposed 8 inch speakers are probably 6x9 oval units--I don't know of any vintage Rodgers cabinets that used 8 inch round speakers.
              I checked my speakers are indeed 8" diameter, so perhaps it was an M10 look-alike

              Originally posted by toodles View Post
              The JBL 075 ring radiator horn made no sense to me in any of the Rodgers designs--it's a very expensive speaker, and fine for it's intended purpose, but that purpose is for a short throw, limited dispersion application. I suspect Rodgers used them because they were owned by CBS Musical Products for a while (prior to Steinway Musical Properties) which also owned JBL. Rodgers probably got them at a heavy discount. It's advantage for Rodgers was probably it's rugged design--and they got to say they used JBL speakers.
              In my case the speakers are in the a small living room, so I guess the short throw dispersion would be well suited, correct?

              Toodles, I also have 4 tweeters, removed from Allen HC12s that I could use somewhere, if you would advise it.
              Eric Mack
              www.ThisOld340.com
              Rodgers 340 S/N 34341
              Los Angeles, CA

              Comment


              • #8
                Sounds like the speaker systems are someone's idea of a clone.

                The problem, in this case, with the 075 ring radiator is that it has a 40 degree conical dispersion angle. Meant for sound reinforcement applications, a limited dispersion is very useful when the speaker can be at some distance from the listeners, and that is what is meant by "short throw"--it's meant for smaller venues rather than larger auditoriums, but it's still mean for a lot larger space than a living room--more like a night club. The limited dispersion eliminate potential reflections which can be a real problem in sound reinforcement.

                In a home, however, limited dispersion means creating "sweet spots" where the sound is in balance, and a wide dispersion is more useful. Most often 1 inch dome tweeters are used for home speakers--though sometimes those include a very short horn section in the front plate or other means to limit dispersion, typically to around 90 to 100 degrees. Incidentally, the use of domes is not for dispersion, the small diameter provides for that. The dome shape provides a rigid structure, which is hard to achieve in a very lightweight cone. Lightweight cones are needed for tweeters so they will be efficient and provide extended frequency response.

                The JBL 075 is also known as the 2402H but that version mounts a little differently. For home use, Rodgers always recommended facing the speakers towards a wall to diffuse the sound. On the audioheritage site, one user commented:

                "The 2402 is really for sound reinforcement use. JBL used it in the old days because they hadn't come up with anything better yet."

                That pretty accurately describes how I feel about it. They came up with a bi-radial design 2404H (often referred to as "baby cheeks referring to a baby's bottom) with much improved dispersion and control. But again, these are generally sound reinforcement speakers.

                I don't really recommend fooling around with different tweeters unless you know what you are doing. You would probably need to redesign the crossover if you changed tweeters.

                If I were to try in install a 340 in a home today, I would not use any Rodgers speakers, except perhaps for the pedal channel. Their other speakers are meant to be very high efficiency but are excessively large and not that good, in my opinion. I'd look for some smaller speaker--consider, perhaps, the Allen HC-12 or HC-14/15.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Before I respond, I'd like to share my objectives. I do not even play yet, so for me this is a wonderful opportunity with the Rodgers 340. My goal, as I stated on my blog, is to learn to restore what I have and then learn to play and enjoy what I have. Then, I will see where I take it and where finances allow me to take this hobby.

                  Right now, my goal is to make the organ work and sound as good as possible with what I already own and to learn about what I have -- both what works well and what could be better. So, I plan to use the speakers I have for now, but I enjoy reading from experts like you and many others from whom I have learned a lot. Thank you.

                  As for the tweeters, I simply mentioned what I had available in case you thought they might be more appropriate. Otherwise, I'm fine with the speakers I have for now. The RW3's are positioned against the wall, as Rodgers intended for the dispersion.

                  The 2'x4'x 4" M10 look-a-likes are positioned as follows:

                  The one with the JBL 075 horn in it is laying flat on the top of my entertainment center so that the speakers and JBL 075 horn are facing up top the ceiling, which is about 8 feet above it and sloped. This means the sound would travel up and disperse around the room. Because the speaker back is open and it is laying flat, I guess it makes it behave like a closed cabinet which is probably not what Rodgers intended. For me, it seems to sound OK and for my wife it is mostly hidden. :-) I am using this speaker for the BRASS channel.

                  The other speaker that I will use for the Celeste channel could be either another M-10 look-alike, OR a smaller 24"x24"x5" m10 look-alike cabinet with the 4 plastic piezo tweeters. This would be standing vertically against an adjacent wall 12' away from the MAIN & TIBIA RW3's. (I have the option to slices these speakers into 1' wide columns and lay them flat on the top of a book case projecting up to the ceiling, if you think that would be better.

                  If you have feedback, I would like to learn. I also have an large M13 in the garage that I can pull speakers from, if needed, including a 10" woofer and another JBL 075 horn,


                  Again, my goal is to 1) get the organ restored and sounding as best as it can with what I own, 2) with learn from you and other experts in this forum about some of these concepts, and 3) enjoy the organ.

                  Thank you for your help.
                  Eric Mack
                  www.ThisOld340.com
                  Rodgers 340 S/N 34341
                  Los Angeles, CA

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Go with what you have now, experiment with placement if you find the sound is too focused in some parts of the listening area.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by toodles View Post
                      For Rodgers, the Scarborough was Model 750, and the 220 was either Specification 220 or Cambridge 220. On the 750 and Cambridge 220, the Great Flute celeste did not mix the celeste in with the flute voice, but mixed it in with the Diapason/Principal. On the Swell, the Viola Celeste mixed the celeste part in with the unit Troimpette and the unison rank was the Swell Principal which had its own audio channel. So no mixing of unison and celeste in the same audio channel on those models. The 340 was an exception but it should have separated out the celeste from the unison.
                      Toodles,

                      I sit corrected--not sure why I wrote Scarborough. It actually is a Rodgers Cambridge!

                      It's quite interesting that Rodgers' Flute Celeste was not mixed with a Flute stop for the celeste. I've never heard of that before, but I suppose at some level, it makes sense. I've always thought of it being mixed with a Flute stop, but a String or small-scaled Diapason would also make sense. I wonder if the difference between the two ranks' timbre would allow the pipes on a pipe organ chest to be placed closer to each other, or if they would still need to be separated due to the pitch-bending effect?

                      You're a fount of excellent information, Toodles!

                      Michael
                      Way too many organs to list, but I do have 5 Allens:
                      • MOS-2 Model 505-B / ADC-4300-DK / ADC-5400 / ADC-6000 (Symphony) / ADC-8000DKC
                      • Lowrey Heritage (DSO-1)
                      • 11 Pump Organs, 1 Pipe Organ & 7 Pianos

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Separation of pipes to avoid "pulling" the pitch is done regardless of the voice.

                        It was pretty much standard with Rodgers Classical instruments to separate a celeste from its unison as far as audio channels, as follows:

                        String Celeste with Trompette (but Rodgers often used a Principal stop for the celeste) on the Swell
                        Flute or Gemshorn Celeste with Principal or with the channel carrying the Krummhorn on the Great/Choir; their Gemshorn was also a Principal

                        I think the idea was that the String Celeste wouldn't usually be used with the Trompette (on the Swell) and the Flute Celeste wouldn't usually be used with the Principal (on the Great). This is just a matter of practical registration to avoid overpowering the celeste voices. Thus, you'd have (in either case) two independent channels to separate the celeste and unison voices.

                        On their analog theatre organs then tended to have few channels than on the classical models so they had to do some mixing that they might not have preferred to do.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          If the JBL 075 are not appropriate for my room, would you recommend that I disable or remove the JBL 075 piezos from each of my RW3s and the M10? The JBL 075 speakers, even this old, apparently fetch a good price on eBay.

                          Also, since the backs of my M10 look-alike speakers are open, does it matter if these are flat against a wall or cabinet, thus enclosing them or should the back side remain open for sound to emanate from both sides. I'm learning about speakers and understand that there are different designs.
                          Eric Mack
                          www.ThisOld340.com
                          Rodgers 340 S/N 34341
                          Los Angeles, CA

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Speakers that are designed with open backs should be used without closing off the back. On the Rodgers models, you can place them right up against a wall--you can't really get an acoustic seal that closes off the back just by placement against a wall.

                            The JBL's 075's are not piezo devices; here's a piezo tweeter: https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.co...-horn-tweeter/

                            Here's the JBL 2402 ring radiator: http://www.jblpro.com/pub/obsolete/2402.pdf

                            Here's the JBL 075 ring radiator: http://www.lansingheritage.org/image.../075/page1.jpg

                            Some of the JBLs have a black outer ring some natural aluminum.

                            I would not remove the JBL tweeters until you have something to replace them. You'd lose a lot of your highs. You need to approach your speaker choices and changes in a systematic way.

                            Seriously--listen to what you have and find fault with it before you go changing anything. Again, if I were putting serious money into a 340 setup, I would replace all but the bass cabinet with Allen HC-15's or may Klipsch Heresy speakers. But that is a lot of money.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Thank you Toodles. I hope others find as much benefit in your responses as I do. I have a file of threads on various topics in which you and other experts in this forum provided rationale to help a newcomer understand concepts. I'm going to split out the celeste and use the speakers I have until such time that I learn to understand some of the more advanced differences. Thank you again.
                              Eric Mack
                              www.ThisOld340.com
                              Rodgers 340 S/N 34341
                              Los Angeles, CA

                              Comment

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