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**jbird604** · 01-19-2019, 08:49 AM

Nathan. You are a kindred spirit! I've been involved with organs for over 45 years and have been fighting the same battles all these years. Organ dealers, architects, church building committees -- none of these folks seem to understand acoustics, or what the organ is supposed to DO in the room. And they wind up with the most ungodly installations that do little except frustrate and anger the musicians, the worshipers or audience, and everybody else for decades.

To answer a few of your questions -- The individual audio channels of an organ like that do indeed carry separate and distinct portions of the organ's stops. So moving a single speaker and placing it behind the organist will not help at all and will in fact make it much more confusing, as the organist will now hear one channel (which might carry 8 or 10 of the stops but nothing else) very loudly, but not hear the rest of them at all.

You are correct that the current arrangement is just AWFUL! As you say, like a bad p.a. system. Nothing at all like a real pipe organ would project sound into the room. The speakers should have been placed all in one cluster, in a location where the organist can hear all the channels perfectly, where choir or orchestra or other musicians who will must coordinate with the organ can hear all channels clearly, and where the sound will smoothly and effectively project out into the room itself, with a proper blend of all the sounds reaching listeners wherever they are seated.

That of of course is the "ideal" setup and may be difficult if not impossible to achieve. But that is what we SHOULD aim for. I have installed scores of organs in my career, and have always tried to live by these goals. In fact, the Allen Organ Company (whose organs I sold for a local dealership for many years, and continue to service and maintain) issued guidelines for installations that stressed all the above goals. But many dealers choose to ignore these guidelines. And many architects do not design a structure to provide a suitable location for the speakers, and churches themselves are often ignorant of the need for these rules.

So LOTS of very bad organ installations are out there, and it sounds like you are right in the middle of one of the worst imaginable.

What to do? There needs to be a meeting of the minds of all involved here. The organist for sure, the directors of music programs and other leadership personnel, and you, if you are to directly aid them in correcting this abominable situation.

Some churches have resorted to HORRIFIC "fixes" such as running the organ into the house sound system and providing the organist with a "monitor" speaker so he/she can "hear" what they're playing. This absolutely DESTROYS the integrity of the organ as a musical instrument. The reason for the multiple audio channels is simply to keep the individual groups of stops that make up the organ SEPARATE until they mix naturally in the air. Mixing them electronically results in terrible degradation, specifically in "out-phasing," compression, distortion, frequency response changes, loss of three-dimensional quality. You no longer have an acoustic musical instrument playing in the room. You might as well be listening to a poorly made mono recording of an organ through speakers that are optimized for vocal projection.

Even if the house system has 20,000 watts of power and a stack of 18" subwoofers, it is still not properly designed for organ sound projection. A house system by definition projects sound toward the ears of the people in the room. But organ sound should be projected through speakers that are NOT aimed at anyone's ears, but intentionally BOUNCE the sound off all the available surfaces. The sound should be directed at walls, ceilings, splayed at various angles, made to mix acoustically. The organ sound should NEVER be aimed right out at the people! NEVER. And that is what you have right now. No wonder people complain about it being too loud. It may not actually be too loud, but I'm sure it sounds horrible.

So you all need to have a serious talk. Otherwise, that organ is probably better off silent. Good luck!

**jbird604** · 01-19-2019, 09:13 AM

A thought -- after that long rant, I might offer a possible course of action. It would probably be better for all concerned if all 10 of those speaker cabinets were relocated to an area at the back of the platform, possibly half of them at the left, half at the right. They could be laid on their backs facing up at the ceiling, if the ceiling has any reflective qualities at all. If the ceiling is not reflective or if the platform doesn't even have a ceiling, if there is a shell behind the musicians, the speakers could be aimed to bounce their sound off the shell.

That would at least get them back where the organist can hear the organ, and stop them from just blasting away at the ears of the people in the seats.

According to the Allen tech site, the MDS-55 was designed to have seven audio channels, but your specimen was probably intentionally modified into five channels for simplicity of setup. In a more ideal situation, the different divisions of the organ (great, swell, choir, ancillary, pedal) might get placed in different speaker pairs and placed in different chambers across the front of the room. But if the room wasn't built with that in mind, it's probably best to simply keep all five channels in a single group, thus five cabinets on each side, with the sides paralleled rather than carrying separate channels.

That might in fact solve a lot of your problems. The organ would not be performing optimally, and possibly never reach the power levels that one would expect from a large Allen organ, but at least it would be projected rather evenly around the platform and out into the room.

**jbird604** · 01-19-2019, 09:23 AM

One more, and I'll quit for now.... I just looked again at the MDS-55 on the tech site, and I see that there WAS a five-channel version as well as the 7-channel, so you probably have the fiver there. Each stack of speakers should contain four HC-15 cabinets and one HC-12. The HC-12 is used only on the dedicated pedal channel that carries the 32' pedal stop.

So my advice in the post above stands -- put a set of five cabinets behind everyone else on the stage at each side of the platform, facing upward at the ceiling or back at the shell or rear wall. That is possibly about all you can do in this situation.

**myorgan** · 01-19-2019, 09:40 AM

Nathan,

Welcome to the Forum. Well, you caught John in one of his remarkably direct moments! That's rare for him, but I agree. It sounds like someone placed the organ's speakers as an afterthought to the overall setup and you're left to sort out the mess. I wonder if the PA system is set up with the same disregard for its purpose.O:-)

Allen did make one option available to help organists and choirs in such a situation. Presence projector speakers (tweeter & mid-range) could be added to the speakers, and directed toward the organist so (s)he can hear what is being played, but there will be no bass, which is less directional anyway. However, that is not the best solution.

You neglected to mention whether the speakers were speaking directly to the audience, or if they were angled toward each other in an attempt to blend the sound. If the stacks are 5 speakers high, that tells me you have at least a 15' high ceiling (or greater). Is there a way to mount the speakers close to the ceiling? Is there a balcony where speakers could be mounted? Are there angled surfaces where they could be placed? Obviously, there are many questions you did not answer in your post.

If it possible to upload a rough sketch of the space, indicating the current setup?

The Expander II was probably added when the church was being used for a praise band, and used for its modern (non-organ) samples. I believe the MDS-55 already had a 32' Reed in the pedal, so it couldn't have been for that stop. Perhaps to add a 32' Contre Bourdon instead of the onboard 32' Violone.

I look forward to learning more of your setup so we can propose some ideas. As an acoustic engineer, you are certainly aware of what can work, if given the opportunity.

Michael

**Admin** · 01-19-2019, 09:51 AM

If relocating the speakers is not an option, then I'd go the stage monitor approach. Take the stereo mix to the reverb and feed it to a couple 3" or 5" monitors such as these

and place them on top of the console or at ear level. They needn't be very loud nor produce the full spectral range of the organ. Their purpose is to compensate for the loss of presence resulting from the organ being placed behind the speakers.

Alternatively, it's up to the organist to learn and adapt to the difference between what she hears and what the congregation hears.

BTW, this problem is not limited to electronic organs. Our theatre pipe organ console is on a movable platform and on the orchestra pit lift, but it can be rolled on stage and the pit lowered. When onstage proper, it's behind the proscenium and organ chambers and the organist has to be aware and adapt to that reality if accompanying other musicians.

**locutus** · 01-19-2019, 10:10 AM

Thank you John. This is helpful. Though maybe it just solidifies the problem.

The architecture was clearly a series of compromises and does not offer any easy solutions. I can see no practical way to relocate any major number of speakers.

The new choir loft is built right up against the exterior block wall, so there is nothing available behind it. Don't get me started on the choir shell, which was clearly "designed" by the cheapest contractor, not an acoustician. It has massive parallel side walls that create a terrible flutter echo. It sounds more like a racquetball court than a choir hall. I have proposed the most modest change I can think of which will fix the problem, and I can't even get that approved, because it will affect the stairs.

Please, just once in my life I would like to get consulted BEFORE the walls are built, not after all the money is spent. Why do people only start to think of acoustics when they have a problem?

Fortunately, the main speakers don't work too bad for the back 3/4 of the room. The single HC12 would explain why it is rather anemic sounding though. The low end really disappears in a room of this size.

Any major changes or expenditure is clearly off the table for at least 5 years. If nothing is done though, I fear the organ would be shut down for good before then.

Hence, I am pursuing alternate means. If I can get a 5-channel mix from the organ, I believe I can find a way to send that to the organist with a decent mix of direct and reflected sound, to be a sufficient representation of the full organ. And then to do this without changing the balance in the room.

Thanks.

Nathan

**locutus** · 01-19-2019, 10:33 AM

Michael, yes the ceiling is rather high. At least 30'. The bottom of the speakers are about ~15' above the floor, 12' above the platform. They are all stacked together facing straight out to the audience, like a stereo PA system. They are mounted in a wing wall, like the side of a proscenium arch. The organist is on the platform just inside the wing wall. Seemingly close to the speakers, but slightly behind them. She can hear some bass, but loses all of the highs and most of the mids, except what bounces back from the ceiling and far walls.

We have experimented with a monitor type speaker, and while she can hear the instrument with this, she cannot hear the room sound to balance herself. The problem is of balance. She often ends up drowning out the 50 voice choir. Almost as bad as a volunteer brass section!

The presence projector would be an interesting concept, since it can be co-located with the main speakers and be time-aligned with them. Monitor speakers have a very different type of sound and can be very brash sounding compared to the room sound. It is an acquired skill to learn to play with them, and learning to balance from them would be a real challenge.

**jbird604** · 01-19-2019, 11:04 AM

Given the limitations you describe, perhaps some kind of alternative speakers for the organist to hear is about all you can hope for.

The five audio amplifiers, as noted, carry five distinct groups of stops, so the organist needs to hear all of them equally well. You can install simple "Y" adapters at the input to each of the five amps, branch off from there to five line inputs on a small mixer, blending the channels, panning them around in a sort of faux stereo field. Then output to a pair of good quality powered speakers placed near the console. At least the organist will then hear a decent facsimile of what the organ is sending out into the room.

If there's any way to do it, send this same monitor mix into a hefty subwoofer placed in the region of the console as well. This will help the organist get a sense of the pedal/bass quality of the organ as well as the body of sound that will come through small powered monitors.

I'd also suggest that you turn down the amplifier volume knobs a bit, if the consensus out in the seating is that the organ is too loud and that it overpowers the choir. BTW, if the organ regularly accompanies the choir, they need to hear the organ properly as well, so you may need to place a monitor system where the choir can hear some organ directly also. This is getting complicated!

At least from your description is sounds like the room itself is quite large, which is usually a good thing for organ sound in general, and the speakers are up high, which is also a good thing.

Given that nothing more substantial is likely to be done for many years, let's just hope that folks don't just get entirely fed up with this jack-leg organ setup and declare that they want the thing removed. That is a very nice organ and ought to be providing a rather thrilling digital imitation of what a pipe organ could do in that room.

When the time comes, I hope you're able to persuade them to create proper placement locations for the speakers. Here's a fine example I can offer:

A good-sized Presbyterian church in my area has a very similar Allen. When they built a new church building a few years ago, they built a very spacious room BEHIND the choir loft just for the organ speakers to live in. The room is probably 10' deep and 20' wide with a 12' ceiling, and has a grille-covered opening at least 10' high and 15' wide just above the choir risers and seats. The organ console is just off center right in front of the choir. The church itself is constructed of concrete and stone with a lot of glass and wood, a high wooden ceiling. Looks and sounds somewhat like a big European cathedral, though certainly nowhere as large.

With this lovely setup, the organ tone flows out into the room much as the sound of a big pipe organ would, with the sound pouring over the choir to give them fantastic tonal support. And the organist hears the organ exactly as they do, and exactly as everyone else in the church hears it. I couldn't have designed a better organ chamber if they'd asked me up front. They must have had a fabulous architect.

**locutus** · 01-19-2019, 04:32 PM

I thought the same thing about the subwoofer. I have already started lobbying to get large speakers or a subwoofer for this task.

I got to spend some time with the organ this morning when the room was empty. I found that someone had previously spliced in (yes, they cut the wire and spliced a wire in it) an output that goes to a 1/4" jack. However, it appears they took this split from the reverb "send" signal, but AFTER the low pass filter. So nothing comes through over 950Hz.

This feed comes from the USRM-3 jack J481, through a midi/reverb submixer, then the crossover matrix, to the reverb module ADR-4. Given the wiring techniques employed, and the location of the split, I am not confident in the rest of the implementation.

So, is this reverb feed a good place to get a 5 channel mix? Would before the AE50 board be better? Or should I employ an external mixer (more complication) with all 5 channels?

I have seen some discussion of different places the dynamics pedals can be inserted into the chain. Is this reverb send going to bypass any dynamics or volume control? The point is to give the organist better control, not less.

Nathan

**jbird604** · 01-19-2019, 05:27 PM

The reverb send isn't the worst place to pick up a mix. It is post expression so gives a true representation of the output. But it's dead mono and lacks reverb, so not very interesting. Should be taken ahead of the low pass filter of course!

Perhaps you should try that first since it's simple. You could take that signal into a good powered speaker and set it by the console. Still a wretched idea, but might help.

Personally, I'd be sick to death if I had to play an organ that I could only hear through a honky monitor speaker. This is not what a musician signs up for!

And the choir and the church as a whole are being deprived of the truly joyous musical contribution of a properly installed organ. But we can't always have what we want...

**Larrytow** · 01-19-2019, 08:22 PM

Nathan,

Welcome to the forum. You have got some very good advice already from our members who really know the subject. It is a complicated problem you are faced with. After all, it is much easier to reconfigure an organ installation if there are some funds available. As well as the willingness on the part of the church to do so.

One thing I would suggest to make advising you more helpful, is to take and post some photos of the current setup, and the room itself. Your description is very good, but it is always better to have photos to make the setup ( and other possibilities ) more clear in our minds.

**davidecasteel** · 01-19-2019, 10:10 PM

I have a question, which I'll get to in a minute. My understanding is that the current speaker arrangement is in 2 groups of 5 each, located on opposite sides of the "stage" (chancel) and forward of the organist and choir, which is situated against the back wall of the chancel. Both groups of speakers are facing the congregation, which apparently hears the organ too loudly and the organist can hardly hear it at all. It has been suggested that perhaps the choir also does not hear the organ well. The organist is at one side of the choir loft.

Now the question. What would be the effect of turning the group of speakers on the side opposite the organist to face into the chancel in the direction of the organist and choir? And directing the other group sort of at the opposite wall of the Sanctuary (fanning across the congregation).

Without seeing the actual physical layout of the space and hearing what it sounds like, I can't really offer any solid recommendations, but I wonder what the effect of my suggestions might be. Just rotating the orientation of a stack of speakers ought not be too difficult to achieve (unless they are actually nailed to a wall).

David

**jbird604** · 01-20-2019, 09:52 AM

David might be on to something there. In fact, IF the stacks of speakers can be rotated, it might actually work best to turn BOTH of them 90 degrees so that they actually face toward each other, throwing organ sound more or less straight across the open space above the platform. This might seem counterproductive, and it certainly isn't the way to install a sound system, but for the organ it just might work. After all, the audience definitely doesn't want or need the "straight shot" of organ sound coming right out toward their ears. And the choir, organist, and others on stage can't hear the organ with the speakers blowing in the opposite direction, and they would be overwhelmed if the speakers were turned all the way around back toward them. So perhaps shooting across the stage would be a good compromise.

Can't hurt to try, IF the stacks are movable, and not contained within a cavity or wall of some kind. And it wouldn't take any re-wiring or cost any money.

**myorgan** · 01-20-2019, 10:05 AM

Nathan,

In reading the posts since your first post, I wonder if it isn't possible to take some of that overhead space and construct chambers that speak both into the choir area as well as into the auditorium. I once played at a church that had a Rodgers organ with speakers in chambers near the ceiling, and they opened both to the choir loft (above the old pipe organ bellows), and out into the auditorium. The openings had angled louvers, which allowed no direct sound to enter either space, but provided both spaces with adequate sound. The louvers were made of wood. In this case, there was a small room underneath each chamber used for classes.

I know it's a long shot and that you haven't been able to get adequate finances for other solutions, but who knows, it may work.

Michael

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