Allen Renaissance/Pipe Organ Issue

[myorgan]

Yesterday, my chorus students sang in a combined choir in a local cathedral. The main console of the pipe organ is currently under renovation, so an Allen Renaissance has been connected to both the gallery and main organs to play them. However, when they disconnected the main console to do updates, the Allen is experiencing issues.

When a Swell pedal is engaged the first time (split expression), there is about 1/2 second lag, and subsequently a 1 second lag, 2 second lag, 4 second lag, etc. The organist tried resetting the Allen, but the issue returns and builds as long as the organ is on. The same issue may be occurring with keying as well, but I didn't confirm that with the organist.

Does anyone have an idea what might be causing the issue? He's hoping when the main console is reconnected, it will solve the issue. Any ideas? Not to prejudice the responses, but it sounds like an open circuit or loop might need to be closed.

Michael

[you795a]

Someone else might have some ideas but I think that it might be possible that the gray or white 9-pin network cables are disconnected. If I recall correctly, I think that they may be connected together and that might close the network loop. I would wait to see if Jbird or someone else responds.

[AllenAnalog]

My first question would be to ask how the Allen Renaissance organ is connected to the organ and who made that connection? The organ tech, the Allen dealer, a church member? Presumably there is an existing electronic multiplex system that connected the native organ console to the pipe chambers.

An off-the-shelf Allen organ would not be equipped with a pipe organ interface and I would think a rather expensive project to retrofit one temporarily to an instrument. So one might guess that this temporary arrangement is using a MIDI connection from the Allen console.

There are potentially a lot of "moving parts" with this arrangement where something could go wrong. Most organ multiplex control systems that I know have the external MIDI input connection in the console electronics, not in the pipe chamber electronics unless this system uses MIDI throughout as a control network.

If this is a MIDI connection, what "magic box" translates the MIDI data stream from the Allen console to decode notes, rank selects, swell engine comands, etc.? Peterson and other electronic relay manufacturers have had many issues with external MIDI signals driving their product and nasty latency issues can arise, some of which are documented in tales of woe on this very forum.

I really don't think this is something that this audience can address without a lot more information about the manufacturer of the pipe organ electronics and how it is connected to the Allen. And even then we might not be able to get into the technical weeds of this problem.

[jbird604]

Larry may have hit the nail on the head, if indeed they are using MIDI as the interface means. As Larry points out, a permanent, dedicated connection from an Allen console to an existing pipe organ would have required extensive custom work and expensive purpose-built components, and since an Allen Renaissance transmits all its console data out on the MIDI jack, that would have been the quick and cheap way to hook it in, using, perhaps some kind of computer program as the "relay" (possibly a bespoke Hauptwerk or jOrgan disposition).

As usual, the computer would be the weak link, prone to corruption and bottlenecks. If there's no computer, then maybe the various MIDI-controlled devices in the organ chamber -- chest sliders, individual valves, shades, and so on -- are on different MIDI "receivers" which might be linked in serial fashion, the MIDI THRU of one being used to pass the data on to the next. That link can be quirky too and introduce delays

While the MIDI stream does indeed carry all the data required to operate every piece of hardware in the organ, it's just not a 100% reliable way to transmit real-time musical data for such a complex system, and that's why a dedicated permanent setup would have used more elaborate hardware.

Several background questions come to my mind, such as how old is the Allen Renaissance console? Could be from as early as 1998 or so. Where did it come from? Who did the setup? How long is it going to be in place? If it's one of the older original Renaissance organs, it might have a well-known bug in one of the power supplies, especially if the keying is optical, but how that would affect expression I can't imagine.

So, yeah, it would be hard for someone to troubleshoot this one remotely without a great deal of information from the person responsible for the setup.

[myorgan]

I realized it would be a "shot in the dark" to ask the question. Unfortunately, the organist was rather reluctant to even tell me the issue the organ was having. I'm not sure he'll be too forthcoming with any technical information. I suspect you're both correct in your summations, but without any details regarding the setup, it is impossible to solve the issue.

There is a former Allen salesman who went over to Rodgers in our state, and was known for providing unorthodox setups for many different instruments. An Allen at a funeral home is even set up with Rodgers' disc playback mechanism which also controls the stops and expression. The organ is either an MOS-1 or MOS-2, and was set up that way (with full vibrato) from its inception. Ingenious, but awful!

Thanks for trying, though.

Michael