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Speakers on Allen MOS-1 model 100 or 120

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    Speakers on Allen MOS-1 model 100 or 120

    Our church has this Allen organ and near as I can tell it is a MOS-1 type model 100 or 120. It is in a very tight corner of our small balcony. The speakers built in face toward the organist. Problem is that she gets a direct blast of all the sound but a half height balcony wall traps most of the sound from getting out and down to the main floor level. There was talk of whether the internal speakers could be housed in some other type of enclosure and then placed somewhere maybe still near the organ but in a position to "send" or aim the sound out and down. I don't know about using the built in speakers due the amount of effort to build an appropriate enclosure.
    Then, not knowing much at all about organ speakers, is there some sort of speaker system on the market (all in one box) or are they called tone boxes, that could be connected in place of the existing ones and again aimed to do the job. The way it is, the organist can't hear the congregation sing with all the organ sound coming right to her and so is difficult to know if you are playing loud enough or not loud enough.
    I'm an electronic tech by trade so I think with help I could get it hooked up correctly. Again, any advise and help will be much appreciated.

    #2
    Rather than removing speakers from the organ and building a custom box for them you should just buy two high quality full-range speakers with multiple drivers and hook them up to the output of the two amplifiers in the console, disconnecting the wires going to the internal speakers. It's a simple job. You could find used Allen HC12 speakers online but you might have to replace the surrounds on the drivers if they have foam rot.
    Larry is my name; Allen is an organ brand name.

    Main: Allen RMWTHEA.3 with Rocky Mount Electra-Piano, Allen 423-C + Gyro cabinet, Britson Opus OEM38, Saville Series IV Opus 209, Steinway AR Duo-Art, Mills Violano Virtuoso with MIDI
    Lower Level: Hammond 9812H with roll player, Gulbransen Rialto, Roland E-200, Vintage Moog
    Shop: Mason&Hamlin AR Ampico piano, Allen ADC-5300-D with 18 speakers and MIDI, 4 Allen theater organ tone cabinets (including 3 Gyros, but don't call me Gyro Gearloose!).

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      #3
      Did a search for HC12 but only one set on Ebay and freight would be$300. I don't have a schematic of the organ / speaker connections. When you say 2 amplifiers.... Is there a separate amp for the low end and then for the midrange, hi end? Anyway if I can locate some good vintage stereo floor speakers should I get a pair and put one at each back corner to project out? Anyway how would I be connecting two either 4 or 8 ohm units to the organ output? Thanks!

      Comment


        #4
        A MOS-1 single computer organ like yours has two audio channels. Each channel has an individual amplifier, which is screwed to the bottom of the inside of the console. There are two screw terminals for the speaker output on the amp, which will have wires leading to the internal speakers driven by each amp. Disconnect those and hook up individual 2-conductor cables to power your external speakers. For short distances, 16-gauge wire is fine.

        An 8-ohm full range speaker with a decent size woofer is the best choice, one for each channel. I wouldn't put the speakers too far apart since the voices of the organ stops are split between the two channels. It would probably sound odd if you put one in each corner and they are more than a few feet away from each other.

        Try your local Craigslist along with ebay. HC speakers come up for sale or auction all the time but not always close enough to make it worth the drive to pick them up since they weigh about 85 pounds.
        Larry is my name; Allen is an organ brand name.

        Main: Allen RMWTHEA.3 with Rocky Mount Electra-Piano, Allen 423-C + Gyro cabinet, Britson Opus OEM38, Saville Series IV Opus 209, Steinway AR Duo-Art, Mills Violano Virtuoso with MIDI
        Lower Level: Hammond 9812H with roll player, Gulbransen Rialto, Roland E-200, Vintage Moog
        Shop: Mason&Hamlin AR Ampico piano, Allen ADC-5300-D with 18 speakers and MIDI, 4 Allen theater organ tone cabinets (including 3 Gyros, but don't call me Gyro Gearloose!).

        Comment


        • myorgan
          myorgan commented
          Editing a comment
          Larry,

          Would HC-14 or HC-15 speakers work OK on his organ? Since the organ doesn't have 32' stops, I would think the HC-14 or HC-15 speakers would serve the church's needs well, and the highs would be a bit more reinforced. I wouldn't support using stereo speakers because many of them do not have the ability to handle low frequencies for extended lengths of time. I recommend Allen's speakers.

          Scout,

          I second Larry's great advice above. As John (jbird604) related in another thread, it was not uncommon practice to move the internal speakers from an Allen, and placing them on a board outside the organ behind grille cloth. Personally, I prefer Larry's advice of purchasing 2 external speakers and using them.

          Michael

        • Organkeys Jones
          Organkeys Jones commented
          Editing a comment
          HC-14 or HC-15's would actually sound better than HC-12's on that organ.

        #5
        Thanks for the information. I mentioned trying Ebay but usually the party will be far enough away that the freight would shoot the deal down. I'm in a small rural town so no Craig's list town nearby. I found some possibilities in Minneapolis Craig's list but that's over 2 hours away. So will keep checking around. Do you think having the speakers about 4-6 feet apart would be adequate? Guess I'm pretty ignorant on how they separate the sound to produce different "voices" from the organ or whatever that is. When mounted internally, the speakers are all within inches of each other so seems like it would all come out "together" anyway so why have two separate audio outputs... couldn't they just use some sort of crossover setup. Thanks again for you help AllenAnalog !

        Comment


        • myorgan
          myorgan commented
          Editing a comment
          If there is no need to separate the speakers, you should leave them together. Often, people will recommend angling the speakers so the sound reflects off a hard wall, slanted ceiling, or even off the back wall of the balcony. Just a thought.

          Michael

        • AllenAnalog
          AllenAnalog commented
          Editing a comment
          By "voices" I mean the sounds that come out of the organ when you depress a stop tab and then play notes on a keyboard. Each stop tab represents one voice and it will come out of either the Main or Flute channel, not both. Each channel has a full-range frequency output; there is no bass channel or treble channel. The speakers for each channel have crossovers built into the console but they are part of the speaker wiring and most probably visible on the board which holds the internal speakers.

          I would look for any Allen HC-x speakers, just get a matching pair of the same model number and be sure to look at the surrounds on the speaker cones to make sure they are in good condition. These speakers have their own crossover networks for the various drivers.

          Once you have external speakers connected you will have to experiment with their placement to find the optimum place for the organist to hear as well as getting the sound out to the congregation better. So have a few extra feet of speaker cable for each run to allow changes in placement until you are satisfied.

          Each amplifier has a volume control and they are used to change the maximum output level of the organ and balance the sound between the two channels. Any external speaker you use will have a different efficiency than the internal speakers so once the organist uses the swell pedal (the foot operated volume control) to show you how loud the organ can sound with maximum movement of the swell pedal and full chords, you can adjust the amplifier volume controls accordingly.

        #6
        Thanks Larry for your explanation... helps a lot. Also thanks "myorgan" for your comments. I've tried but can't seem to get the quote function to do what I want. Have tried highlighting with my cursor the sentence I want to quote. Then click on the quote symbol. The word quote appears with brackets which is where I would expect the highlighted words to appear. When I go to preview the quoted lines don't show up so don't know what I'm doing wrong. Anyway that's a side issue. I want to address your comments here maybe numbered so I can be sure I'm clear.

        1. As far as getting 2 speakers for this organ to mount externally, I have some questions. If it just isn't possible to find any of those Allen models you suggested, would it still be acceptable to use a pair of high quality stereo speakers with about a 12" woofer, a midrange and tweeter? Even if I locate a pair of Allen, I'm concerned about buying them and then finding the surrounds are falling apart. (By the way is this true just of the woofer or all the speakers in the Allen units?) I don't feel capable of trying to repair these especially if paying a sizable amount for them only to find they need to be repaired. Wondering how that is such a common problem (faulty surrounds) if our 1973 organ seems to have no such problem.

        Seems I was browsing through some other posts and recall a fellow saying he knew of a person in Wisconsin that rebuilt some Allen speakers and I was wondering if he may be able to locate and sell some he has serviced. The name of the fellow was not mentioned for privacy reasons but the poster said a PM from anyone would be all that would be needed to put one in touch with the Wisconsin fellow...… BUT I can't find that post and any attempts of doing a search never works for me.... guess I don't know just how to approach the "search" feature as to whether you want to search the entire forum site or just one topic. So if anyone can help me come up with a discussion where a town in Wisconsin is mentioned, maybe it would give me a lead to contact that fellow to see if he has some Allen speakers or knows where to locate them. Since I'm in Minnesota, shipping may be lower being adjacent states.

        2 I've included 2 photos here but the space on each uploaded photo where you can write something about it doesn't work for me. I put in a description of the picture but when previewing, the description doesn't show up.

        In the pictures you will see an overall shot of the small church where you can see the balcony and on far right is where the organ sets. Another picture is a closer up view of the tiny space the organ is located. The picture of the balcony may help you fellows suggest where the two external speakers might be placed. There was talk about placing them fairly close together so that would mean either side of the center wreath? Another option might be near the far sides of the balcony but then would that create that issue of folks not getting the full sound of both with that kind of separation? Obviously we also want things to look symmetrical. Would not like the speakers right against each other and don't want them to stand out like a sore thumb.

        I will stop at this point as I've mentioned maybe too many things already..... thanks again to all.

        Comment


          #7
          What nice architecture! The arched ceiling can cause acoustical anomalies as well. The church where I grew up had an arched ceiling, and I remember them having to take some time overcoming some acoustical anomalies. I've included a photo.

          It appears your church is small enough there are a couple of options:
          1. Run the speaker cords along the ceiling trim, and mount the speakers in the front of the church facing the balcony. The church doesn't appear to be large enough so there would be a delay. The only issue is that perhaps you'd hear the organ more than the voices–facing the other way.
          2. Place both speakers opposite the organ, but angled either toward the ceiling, or toward the center of the balcony. Not enough so the sound is directly facing the organist, but enough so the organist can hear a good mix between the organ and the voices.
          Most of the surround issues lie with the 15" woofer on the Allen organs. The HC-14 & HC-15 speakers used accordion surrounds which were paper-based, and were not subject to disintegrating surrounds. The HC-12 speakers were the only ones which had foam surrounds subjected to disintegration. The 4" mid-range speakers of all 3 were subject to disintegration, but the surrounds can be replaced. John (jbird604) wrote a post about it a couple of years ago, and related his experiences with the project. Hiring someone to replace surrounds isn't really expensive–it just takes time.

          Hope that helps.

          Michael Click image for larger version

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          Way too many organs to list, but I do have 5 Allens:
          • MOS-2 Model 505-B / ADC-4300-DK / ADC-5400 / ADC-6000 (Symphony) / ADC-8000DKC
          • Lowrey Heritage (DSO-1)
          • 9 Pump Organs, 1 Pipe Organ & 6 Pianos

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