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Speakers on Allen MOS-1 model 100 or 120

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    #46
    Just a few practical observations: If you wish to obtain HC12 or HC15 speakers, the concern is shipping. I recently had some large items shipped via Greyhound bus. Although it involves going to the nearest station to ship or pick them up, it's a whole lot cheaper than other methods.
    Regarding amps, there are used Allen amps available all the time on *bay, just in case you hit disaster. A question for more august members: Would the S100 be more rugged? Same footprint with more height, if they fit, and more power of course.
    If you decide to use the internal speakers as well you could always put a resistor in series with the internal speakers and reduce the volume. Seen same on *Bay, sometimes part of another Allen assembly.
    Just in case you decide to have speakers face the wall and someone finds that view ugly, I once installed a used 2 channel ADC organ in a lady's home. She wanted four speakers, two at each end of the room, facing the walls! But she did not want to stare at the backs of speakers - they were utility, so ugly to start with. We got a sample of her wall color - off-white, had a quart of Semigloss latex acrylic mixed at HD to match, painted them with 2 coats, and put dummy grilles with off-white grille cloth on the backs of the speakers. It blended with the room and she was happy!
    Can't play an note but love all things "organ" Responsible for 2/10 Wurli pipe organ, Allen 3160(wife's), Allen LL324, Allen GW319EX, ADC4600, many others. E-organ shop to fund free organ lessons for kids.

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      #47
      Thanks for the comments. I have selected a pair of Electrovoice speakers and we tried them near where they would be mounted. The organist was very pleased and said it was going to be hard for her to stop "practicing" as she was enjoying that the organ keys worked so well and the sound was awesome especially without the internal speakers blaring at her... thanks again.and best regards.

      Comment


        #48
        Originally posted by Scout View Post
        OH... just an after thought. Maybe the best placement would be to the forward (towards altar) of the two opposing walls and up near ceiling. Again in second picture that shows those metal ceiling brackets, I'm referring to the two facing walls (one with the stairway and the other with a louvered vent). Then going in direction of altar, place them near ceiling and face them either crisscrossing or at the sanctuary left and right walls for "bounce". Thanks for listening.
        "Bounce" is way overrated. All churches since the 19th Century are built with some kind of plaster over wood or plaster over brick or all wood. Only bare stone would not absorb huge amounts of the acoustic energy hitting it. No bounce. It won't be that bad since the sound has ample distance to 'bloom'. Try it. Of all the locations, the one that puts the speakers right in the balcony area IMO is best. I think a huge opportunity was missed not to have put the console at the front of the Sanctuary and used the existing pipe chambers on either side of the altar area for the speakers.

        Comment


          #49
          Good thoughts.... even tho having the console up front might be good, the ORGANIST would not hear of it. She was self conscious and nervous being n sight of "everyone" especially if she made a boo-boo. So that is why it has always been this way. In addition the Christmas tree always goes up there and the opposite side has the pulpit and baptismal font so not really much for options.
          That one chamber is full of ductwork and the other is part of another room. So far the organist is thrilled with the repairs / changes which are nearly complete.

          Comment


            #50
            Well I'm back after having installed the two speakers in the balcony as you can see on the attached photo (two black boxes about 6' apart in photo). It was a very tough job mounting as the support rods for each to connect to had to go into the yucky "attic" space full of insulation and invisible boards etc. Never knew if you would be stepping through ceiling. They are slightly canted downward to better clear the short balcony wall. They sound awesome but there are some issues.

            The main thing is that since I sit up there to run the video recording equipment, the volume is making me deaf and unable to hear yourself sing! Since I also have tinnitus (ringing in the ears almost constantly) it makes that condition worse. I have to sit just next to the left speaker in order to work the other equipment. Now two good points are that the congregation can hear the organ better (actually louder than need be I feel ) and the organist can actually for the first time hear the people singing. The reason it is louder, for the most part, is that when experimenting with the speaker placement, I tried them at the very back wall which was not good and in trying to still make it work, I turned up the gain on both amps about 1/8 of a turn on the pots. I have not turned them back down which I surely will do if it doesn't lose all the improvement of better sound in sanctuary and hearing the congregation sing by the organist.

            This brings me to a new (to me) factor in all this. I assumed all the control of the volume, except for the internal amp pots, was by the organist's use of the expression pedal. As she was telling me yesterday, she doesn't use that control other than initial setting which remains about the same. What does affect the volume considerably is the setting of the stops for each manual. I admit I am totally ignorant of most things to do with music and certainly with how the organ all works in a music sense. She was not really aware of the fact there are actually two "channels" of sound via the speakers. The way it was with the built in speakers with all of them clustered together facing her legs, she really would not hear a difference in where the sounds were coming from. I know this still isn't the ideal placement for the new speakers vs. the organist because she hears more from the one nearest her and less from the one nearest me.

            I also learn that the "stops" bring out various "voices" and they have a large variation in the volume you hear. On Sunday she said there seemed to be an issue with the organ dropping out altogether if she used just the #1 Pre-set which is the softer, quieter sound level. She would have to add in or change the stops or such. there are 3 Pre-sets and suppose the third is louder yet? Since there is no user manual she doesn't know for sure how various functions. For example, she would like to know what "voices" or stops are built in to each Pre-set. So if that information is available it might be helpful.

            To review, the organist hears mainly her nearby speaker and much less of the one furthest from her. By the same token, it is opposite for me. Is it absolutely impossible to "mix" those two channels electronically in the organ so all sounds will come out of both speakers..... that way she would hear the blended sound as would I allowing the volume setting to be equal from both speakers.

            One last thought.......the organist said when she comes in and turns on the organ, it can take up to a half hour before sound will come from the lower manual !! I had not noticed this and this is the first time she brought this up..... apparently was not a problem with the speakers internally before... what in the heck could be causing this and is it related to her saying with just the first preset turned on, the sound may just disappear???

            Thanks so much ! Click image for larger version

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              #51
              Goodness, you're having a rough time of it! I'll throw out a few observations, and I apologize in advance if some of this sounds harsh!

              You can now tell why I and others kept insisting to you that the two speakers must be SIDE BY SIDE, by which I mean not over 1" apart! Yes, now you have much more sound going out to the people downstairs, and they are surely hearing an acceptable mix, but obviously YOU are being blasted by the output of just one channel and the organist is hearing mostly just the other channel. This is unacceptable to everyone involved. The speakers should literally be SIDE BY SIDE.

              And it just isn't going to work to have them facing flat out forward like that. They truly need to bounce their sound off something before it goes out into the room. Your goal is to create a rich warm "cloud" of organ sound that will cover the room evenly. Speakers that are blaring out forward cannot produce that kind of effect. Real pipes in a real organ do not shoot sound out like a double-barrel cannon, which is what you now have.

              Sadly, I think you would have been better off with the two speaker cabinets down in the floor of the balcony facing up at the ceiling. The best thing I can think of now is to mount them on the back wall of the balcony over on the ORGAN SIDE, but do not point them straight out at the room. Mount them so they direct their sound up at a 45 degree angle toward the smooth ceiling. That way the organist will hear an equal mix of both channels, but won't be quite so badly blasted, and the people out in the pews should still get enough sound.

              Easier and possibly even better would be to simply lay the two speakers on their backs facing up at the ceiling, back in the rear of the balcony on the organ side, if there is room to do this.

              Yes, you can mix the two channels together if you want to. On MOS-1 organ like this, the two channels carry entirely different sets of stops, but they are electrically in phase and locked in frequency, so there shouldn't be any out-phasing if they are mixed to one channel. Install a simple jumper between the two RCA outputs on the DAC board. (I'll get flamed for this, I know, but I have done this several times in a pinch, and it really doesn't do much damage to the already rather dry sound of a MOS-1 organ. If yours were a larger organ with multiple computers or with frequency separation, you could not do this of course.)

              But this will not be necessary if you will mount the two speakers together as suggested above.

              Also, for anyone who doubts it, there is no need to be able to regulate the volume of the two channels separately on a MOS-1 organ, because Allen carefully designed the system so that each stop has the precise desired level relative to all the others.

              Impossible to know why the lower manual isn't playing at first, or why the organ would seem to be dead on Preset 1. You'll have to get a tech to come to figure that out!
              John
              ----------
              *** Please post your questions about technical service or repair matters ON THE FORUM. Do not send your questions to me or another member by private message. Information shared is for the benefit of the entire organ community, but other folks will not be helped by information we exchange in private messages!

              https://www.facebook.com/pages/Birds...97551893588434

              Comment


                #52
                Scout,

                Great to hear of your progress. My, you have been at work!

                Originally posted by Scout View Post
                Well I'm back after having installed the two speakers in the balcony as you can see on the attached photo (two black boxes about 6' apart in photo). It was a very tough job mounting as the support rods for each to connect to had to go into the yucky "attic" space full of insulation and invisible boards etc. Never knew if you would be stepping through ceiling. They are slightly canted downward to better clear the short balcony wall. They sound awesome but there are some issues.
                I would revert to my suggestions in Post #12 & Post #15. Both posts address the issue of the organist hearing one speaker too loud, and the speakers being too loud for a person sitting in the balcony.

                Originally posted by Scout View Post
                To review, the organist hears mainly her nearby speaker and much less of the one furthest from her. By the same token, it is opposite for me. Is it absolutely impossible to "mix" those two channels electronically in the organ so all sounds will come out of both speakers..... that way she would hear the blended sound as would I allowing the volume setting to be equal from both speakers.
                An alternate suggestion would be to add one of Allen's presence projectors to each speaker, and to place it near the organist, maybe even on the organ pointing toward the ceiling. Presently, there is a pair of them on *Bay. I've thought of purchasing them, but won't bid if you are interested.

                At this point, you will need to try the other options recommended to see if one of those would work out better. I would highly recommend you re-check Option A , but with the speakers aimed slightly toward the ceiling. You would also need to move the piano as well. In that option, the sound has the chance to blend before it leaves the balcony, and the front walls of the balcony serve as a buffer to keep the sound from overpowering the organist and sound person (you?) in the balcony. Direct sound is not good for anyone's hearing, but reflected sound will be more palletable.

                Hope this helps, and thank you so much for following up and providing the results of your speaker placement.

                Michael
                Way too many organs to list, but I do have 5 Allens:
                • MOS-2 Model 505-B / ADC-4300-DK / ADC-5400 / ADC-6000 (Symphony) / ADC-8000DKC
                • Lowrey Heritage (DSO-1)
                • 9 Pump Organs, 1 Pipe Organ & 6 Pianos

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                  #53
                  Sorry to hear that while vast improvements have been made, you are still having issues. I'm going to make a few suggestions for you, but I don't want anyone to think I am being unkind with them. I have reviewed the thread and your photos, and there are some details missing that would be really helpful for all us that are trying to help you. A bunch photos of the entire balcony area would be real nice so we can see the floor layout. Digital photos are cheap and easy these days, so there is not any reason you can't take and post them. Many shots, different angles and so on.

                  You've already done a lot of work, and my first suggestion will likely involve a lot more. However, I think it is critically important. You need to GET THE CONSOLE OUT OF THE DEAD CORNER YOU HAVE IT STUCK INTO !!! That is why the organist can't hear what the speakers are doing with any semblance of proper balance. I would say that the console should be placed on the floor level of the balcony, in the center, along the rail. With the side of the console inline with the center line of the room. It can face either way depending on where the choir may be sitting. But not facing the rear wall, like some churches do.

                  With that sort of placement the organist will hear a good mix of sound from the speakers in their current locations, AND be able to hear how the congregation is singing. The organist will be able to adjust the volume of the organ to blend well with the volume of the congregation singing, since she will be in the center of everything. In your church, this is the ideal placement for the console, and besides the "it's always been in the corner" sentiment, there seems to be no reason to not do it. Just consider it as the other half of the job of improving the organs sound, since you have already done the first half.

                  Yes, with the console placed in that position, the organist could well complain that she hears the organ in one ear and the congregation in the other. That does take a bit of getting used to, just like any other new thing. It can be done though, and once she is accustomed to it, she will love it. It will improve the congregational singing, and you will have a happy organist ( as happy as any of us get, at least ).

                  There are MANY, MANY, MANY, churches all over the world set up with the console in that placement. If it was no good, that would not be so.

                  As far as you feeling like you are hearing too much organ where you are sitting in the line of one of the speakers, I say this : If you are sitting in the balcony because you are running sound, recording, or the like, you are actually working. With that in mind, you hearing things unevenly kinda goes with the territory. Move things around up there if needed. In my view, the main goal of everyone who sits in the balcony should always be to make the service sound decent for the congregation sitting on the floor of the nave. That is the reason balcony's exist - for the music making and technical systems to be heard but not seen. If the sound is not perfect for us up in the balcony, but it is downstairs, that is how it goes.

                  The organist understanding how a particular organ works IS part of the job of being an organist. Your organist is demonstrating that she really does not know enough about that subject. If she would join this forum, we would be happy to answer any questions she has about that Allen, or any other issue.

                  You wrote : "I assumed all the control of the volume, except for the internal amp pots, was by the organist's use of the expression pedal. As she was telling me yesterday, she doesn't use that control other than initial setting which remains about the same. What does affect the volume considerably is the setting of the stops for each manual."

                  On any electronic organ, the expression pedals always control the overall volume of the instrument, and should be used for that purpose. This is excepting the unusual organs that allow for unenclosed divisions, but yours is not one of those. The stops ALSO control the volume, with some being voiced softer or louder than others. Whatever stops are used at any given time changes the volume as various ones are added or removed from the combination. The overall volume of a combination at any given moment can and should be adjusted with the expression pedal to suit the circumstances. It is NOT a set and forget control ! Of course the pots on the amps also set the minimum and maximum volume of each channel. Within that range though is where stop selection AND expression pedal use is used to control the sound.

                  Regarding the combination piston issue I can't say much from a distance like this. I will say that it needs to be described better to really give any suggestions.
                  Last edited by Larrytow; 03-16-2020, 05:22 PM.
                  Regards, Larry

                  At Home : Yamaha Electones : EX-42 ( X 3 !!! ), E-5AR, FX-1 ( X 2 !! ), FX-20, EL-25 ( X 2, 1 chopped, 1 not ). Allen 601D, ADC 6000D. Baldwin 626. Lowrey CH32-1. At Churches I play for : Allen Q325 ( with Vista ), Allen L123 ( with Navigator ). Rodgers 755.

                  Comment


                    #54
                    John and Michael... thanks so much for your speedy replies and the comments you have. First, John, I labored over where to put those speakers and did several trial locations although most facing forward and not having the ability to fasten at various angles, I made a judgement call. Yes I do feel upset about the points you make with the two speakers being too close to the organist and too close to me. But those other locations had there drawbacks as well, ie in far back, they will be too loud for the folks that might end up sitting in that area and the "A" location was a bit obtrusive and seemed no better than where I put them, with the exception they would not be too close to me or the organist. I'm not sure how to place quotes here so I'm doing a copy and paste of you thoughts back in an earlier post


                    02-05-2020, 06:09 AM Post # 14

                    "B" looks good to me. "C" as well. "A" looks less good, as the sound might tend to get lost back in that area, though it would have the advantage of possibly blending moire and getting a little more bounced around.

                    So I decided to mount them at location "B" per your "B" looks good to me suggestion

                    I guess the only other option I should haven given more thought to was the "C" location with both right against each other which would have given a good blend to both organist and myself but still might appear a bit sticking out like a sore thumb up there at the ceiling..... "whatever" as the expression goes. Will have to live with it one way or the other now. We spent so many hours working in that attic and dealing with rotten working conditions not to mention it would have been easier to maneuver for a couple of chimps. LOL

                    So as much as I'd rather do it differently now, I've put my time in and need to recover with a compromise via the joining of the two signals to send same to both speakers. See my sketch and let me know if this should work. First use an RCA "Y" adapter to join the two signals into one line and then splitting that line with another RCA "Y' adapter to send to both amplifiers.

                    I will wind it up here but will mention that I went out to church today and checked things a bit. I wasn't aware of those preset buttons before. A corresponding light comes on to show which preset you are using. For me, I could not get any problems to show up. I selected #1 and put a weight on some keys and I could not get the sound to waver or drop out. Also with spaces of time between trials, I turned the organ off and back on around 10 different times. Every time I turned it back on, it gave me sound within ten seconds. I could not get it to take like several minutes as I was told... unless it happens only when I'm not around, ha. BY THE WAY, I haven't tried but is there a chance of finding a user's manual on the web for this organ and what are the various "voices" are in each of the 3 presets? The only thing that I know of regarding any delay or dropout of presets would be the "muting" function when first turned on. Something to do with whatever "times" that silent period at turn on.Keep coming up with more thoughts..... which connector on the amp inputs is the actual signal line vs. muting and
                    expression pedal.?


                    Thanks guys.

                    Comment


                    • jbird604
                      jbird604 commented
                      Editing a comment
                      You can figure out by trial and error which RCA cable is carrying the signal (vs the expression and muting). Pull them loose one at a time and the channel will go dead when the signal is removed. Your "Y" cable arrangement is perfect for making a mono signal. After you combine the signals that way, you only need one expression cable and one muting cable to be connected, as the two amps will be under the same control.

                      As to the stops in the presets, I'd guess that #1 only has a couple of soft 8' stops, #2 adds some 4' stops, and #3 is a fairly full organ. If it makes no sound on #1, perhaps the relay assembly for that preset is defective.

                    #55
                    Larry, thanks for your time and comments. Much as I would like to go into a detailed reply to some of your thoughts, It's kind of a moot point now that things are the way they are. The balcony consists of about 3 spots.....one corner is the organ and opposite it are two short pews. My wife and I and about 5-6 others at most use those two pews. Way at the back are 2-3 pews seldom used because with the balcony wall you really can't even see the altar. Between those two areas is a dead zone meaning it is the landing of the stairs and spot to keep that little piano. Not much more would be shown beyond the pics I've included in the past posts. Guess I'm not sure what the other guys had in mind about where that piano stands....It is used to accompany (maybe once or twice a year) a tiny choir who barely have enough floor space to stand any way. It's placement or use is really irrelevant to what we've been dealing with.

                    I'm not trying to be a stubborn German but if you were here it would be easier to see and understand the situation pros and cons... just want you to know I really DO appreciate your time and effort to help, Larry. Catcha a bit later,

                    Best regards,
                    Harlan

                    Comment


                    • jbird604
                      jbird604 commented
                      Editing a comment
                      "Stubborn German..." Harlan, my English name is Birdsong, but my distant ancestors came here from Germany and were named Vogelsang. And I'm as stubborn as they come. Just ask my wife!

                    • Scout
                      Scout commented
                      Editing a comment
                      Great to know another brilliant German, chuckle ... no I'm far from it but I do try hard. My grandparents came over from the "old country". Yes, my wife reminds me about the stubborn part lots of times as well. (she is Norwegian)... I just say I'm being persistant and standing up for what I think is right but not ashamed to admit my many faults as well... best regards

                    #56
                    I do apologize if my comments above seemed harsh. To be honest, it is difficult to advise on a job like this from a distance, and I think all of us would feel that we could help you a thousand times more if we were there in person. So it's frustrating for us all, and more so for you, I'm sure, since you're doing the physical work and getting undesired results.

                    Larrytow hits one nail on the head just above -- the console is in a bad location, and you could solve some problems by moving it to a central spot where the organist can hear better. I realize that such a move may be difficult, but it would certainly pay off.

                    Another thing that occurs to me -- perhaps the entire arrangement of the balcony area is just not conducive to a good organ setup. I still don't have a clear mental image of the layout of the balcony floor space, and as Larrytow mentioned, a LOT of very detailed pictures would help us all get a better handle on that.

                    While you may not be able to produce an ideal setup, given the constraints of the balcony and the necessity of making room up there for not only the organ and choir, but also the sound system console and a piano, it should be possible to make it work satisfactorily. But the church may have to buck up and spend some money to get the job done. And allow for the possibility that the balcony area needs to be seriously remodeled.

                    Your organ console is not a really big one, in fact that is about the smallest genuine AGO console there is. So that is not a major problem.

                    If the choir seating could be make more compact and flexible, that might help. For instance, if the choir is currently sitting in fixed pews, and if there are only 6 or 8 choir members, removing several pews and bringing in some nice well-padded folding chairs for the choir would save a lot of room and make it possible to arrange things more functionally.

                    In order to make a good organ installation, you have to think "visually" -- visualize how the organ sound is going to be projected by the speakers. If the speaker arrangement "looks" like it is going to shoot the sound over everybody's heads, then it's a bad arrangement. And remember that SYMMETRY is as important in acoustics as it is visually. If the speakers and console are not sort of arranged along a common axis, the organist will not hear the organ well, and if the choir is not likewise seated on the same axis, they will not hear a good balance of the organ stops.

                    The way the congregation hears the organ is less critical, because they are so much farther away from the speakers. As in the way you hung the speakers from the ceiling, they are going to hear it pretty well. It's the organist and the choir who must hear it correctly though, and the congregation's perception of it will automatically be just fine.

                    And finally, keep in mind one thing I said up above -- a real organ with real pipes does not shoot out sound like a double-barrelled cannon. You don't want the organ to project sound the way a PA system does, nor even the way a home hifi does. The sound coming out of the speakers is not very pleasant, and is intended to be reflected off some hard surface before people hear it.
                    John
                    ----------
                    *** Please post your questions about technical service or repair matters ON THE FORUM. Do not send your questions to me or another member by private message. Information shared is for the benefit of the entire organ community, but other folks will not be helped by information we exchange in private messages!

                    https://www.facebook.com/pages/Birds...97551893588434

                    Comment


                      #57
                      Here are some photos but only 5 permitted so will add more on next post...........

                      Comment


                        #58
                        A few more balcony pics...

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                          #59
                          So I went on a photo journey, as you see in the two previousl posts, and here again is the balcony. I've put a brief description under each photo on full page view. Otherwise I hope these are self explanitory. BTW the "width" of the narrow area at top of stairs landing is about 6-7'. Then the back is wider as well as the front... front has the two pews on one side and other side is organ console.

                          I wanted also to review the drawing I posted of combining the two channels. My understanding is that with an RCA "Y" cable, I first "combine" at the output of the DAC board, the two channels of sounds. Now with the signals combined, I need to branch them into both of the final amplifiers. Both amplifiers will be used and one speaker will connect to each with the end sound being the same at each speaker. John, would you review this explanation and confirm. Also since both amplifiers are still going to be used.... one for each speaker, we still need to keep connected the expression pedal (to jointly control output volume of each) as well as the muting connector to be able to silence both amps during turn on.

                          Again I hope this sounds correct and that the photos help a lot. BTW.... the once or twice a year choir do NOT sit in the balcony at all. They do not use the back pews... can't see over the balcony wall. They sit downstairs, come up for their songs standing together near balcony wall, then proceed to sit with the congregation for balance of the service.... hope this explanation helps...feel free to comment or "critique" , ha....best regards,
                          Harlan

                          Comment


                          • jbird604
                            jbird604 commented
                            Editing a comment
                            Yes, the way you are describing the mono-mix cabling is correct.

                          #60
                          Harlan, Thank you for the good photos ! They really help us understand what you are dealing with there. And ya, that is a difficult situation indeed. That is a very strange way to build a balcony - never seen anything like that before. I may have more suggestions, but I gotta think about it some. Today has suddenly got very busy and complicated here, so that may take some time. I hope others have some ideas for you.
                          Regards, Larry

                          At Home : Yamaha Electones : EX-42 ( X 3 !!! ), E-5AR, FX-1 ( X 2 !! ), FX-20, EL-25 ( X 2, 1 chopped, 1 not ). Allen 601D, ADC 6000D. Baldwin 626. Lowrey CH32-1. At Churches I play for : Allen Q325 ( with Vista ), Allen L123 ( with Navigator ). Rodgers 755.

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