My Friend wants to build her own Virtual Theatre Organ. Can you help?

[Jay999]

Hi guys. Some of you on this forum know me as the friendly pipe organ service man who tries to help fellow forum members with pipe organ related problems. I'm always interested in trying to do that. Now, hopefully, you electronic oriented folks can help me out.</P>


Ethel is a dear friend of mine. She's pretty brave, and not afraid of trying new things. She has just enough electronic knowledge to know what a computer is (if it has a keyboard and a screen hooked up to a big metal box), and she can play the best George Wright theatre organ style you ever heard! She's not wealthy enough to afford some of the new digitals, but thinks she could afford to spend maybe 8K to 10K building up her own theatre organ. That's pretty gutsy for a 65 year old lady!</P>


I can barely get around a computer, myself. So I'm not knowledgeable enough to help her choose the computer, MIDI components, amplifiers, speakers, etc. that she's going to need. I am giving her an old horseshoe, 3 manual console, with the understanding that I will help her with the general wiring of the keys and stops to a MIDI interface, but beyond that, I'm pretty much in the dark. I do work on my own solid state systems that are hooked up to my clients organs....Peterson, Classic Organ Works...and I have a general feel for these types of systems. But I'm no designer, nor computer guru.</P>


Can you give me some help here?</P>
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[odellorgans]

Re: My Friend wants to build her own Virtual Theatre Organ. Can you help?

Talk to Artisan Organs in Kenmore, WA.  They have a nice, scalable product line that includes voices and control systems and they do a lot of theatre work.  

[FrenchHorn8]

Re: My Friend wants to build her own Virtual Theatre Organ. Can you help?

How about jOrgan or MidiTzer?

[j reimer]

Re: My Friend wants to build her own Virtual Theatre Organ. Can you help?



If your friend is prepared to spend that much money, then Hauptwerk should also be considered. JOrgan and Miditzer are free, but that advantage has to be weighed against the following: jOrgan could be a bit daunting to set up for someone with only very basic computer knowledge, and as far as I know, Miditzer provides only for 2-manuals and pedals, and I don't know whether it can be controlled by physical stop keys. All these virtual organs have good chat lists, so there is quite good support.</P>


MyOrgan (another virtual organ) is also free, and can certainly provide stop key control and also combination piston control, but there is no active chat list, and so very little support. Also, it may not have available suitable samples for a 3-manual theatre organ.</P>


The big plus for Hauptwerk is that there seems to be a number of theatre organ samples available, and plenty of support. To make full use of it, however, it does need a top-of-the-range computer.</P>


John Reimer</P>

[Jay999]

Re: My Friend wants to build her own Virtual Theatre Organ. Can you help?



Jay: Thanks for responding, Guys! Ethel came over this evening and made a wonderful supper for us, just in anticipation of being able to sit down beside me, and read your suggestions. We are doing that now, and are going to answer each of your messages. She's already slapped me on the shoulder for saying that she plays a "mean" George Wright. But it is true!Ethel doesn't try to comunicate over the internet...says it scares her. I understand that...a computercan be a very intimidating machine for some of us. While I communicate with you, you've gotta understand.....when you start talking the jargon of modules, interfaces, mega level computers, etc., there are X's that form in front of my eyes, and the wheels that are spinning in my head suddenly stop, trying to figure out what you just said. So please be patient with Ethel and me. So now, I'm going to write you what Ethel is saying back....she's written down every suggestion you offered.</P>


Ethel: Hello fellas. Thank you for responding to my needs for a dream organ! I'm not very good with electrical things, but I have friends out in Arizona and California that are my age, and have done some wonderful things with Virtual organs in their homes. I want to build up (thanks to Jay's giving me this georgious three manual console) a nice ten or twelve rankunit orchestra. The first step is already underway. I'm backing my Mark III out of the garage, and having some workmen come in and close in the garage, next week. I'm so excited.</P>


(Comment from Jay; She's over here tearing up, she's so thrilled.)</P>


Ethel: Anyway, thanks Ed Odell. I talked to you once on the phone while you were still down at Austin. Relayed a question to you from Jay. Thanks for answering. Jay and I will check with Artisan Organs in Kenmore, Wash. Is there an internet site? (Address). Thanks Ed.</P>


Ethel: Dear Frenchorn. I liked your picture. You look a lot like my grandson.Let's make a deal here. Jay tells me that you are one of the real wiz kids (electronic things) from what he has heard about you, through New York Cowboy. If you will give us some good advice, and get my new organ going, I'll give you some free theatre organ lessons! I'll even teach you on my new organ, at my house. You can spend some time learning things, and I'll put you up in my guest room. Is that a deal?</P>


Ethel: HelloMr. Reimer, in Sydney. My gosh! Ithought that American computers only talked to other American computers! Only banks can do this....from Kennesaw, Georgia to Sidney, Australia! (Of course if you remember recently, Pres. Bush said you were Austrians! Ha Ha Ha). Thanks for responding to our questions. Jay says he's familiar with the Hauptwerk programs. However, we are bothwondering what brand and what power (memory level?) computer should be purchased to handle my new organ. Thanks for your comments and suggestions. And please say "hello" to the beach!</P>


Ethel: What I want my new organ to do is to play like a real theatre organ. The stops, (Jay and I have figured probably about 100 stops spread out over the three manuals and pedal), should be able to control the voices individually. There should be a preset arrangement for five generals and five divisionals on each manual. Also, it would be nice to have second touch on the Accm. manual. More second touch than that on a small organ is not necessary for my playing. Perhaps second touch on the Great would be nice, but not absolutely necessary.</P>


(Comment from Jay) I'll make Great and Accompanyment second touches available for her. That's just a mechanical change....easy to do.</P>


Ethel: So fellas, I appreciate all your comments and suggestions. For Jay and I both, we most sincerely appreciate your explanations of the individual "magic boxes" that need to be part of this organ. I look forward to chatting with you here at the Organ Forum. And if any of you come down this way, (Atlanta area), I can makeyou a great meal, pour you a wonderful drink, and teach you how to play the theatre organ. We'll get together again in aboutfour days....Saturday. Thanks again for your help!</P>


Love to you fellas.Ethel.</P>


Thanks guys! Jay.</P>
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[j reimer]

Re: My Friend wants to build her own Virtual Theatre Organ. Can you help?



Jay and Ethel,</P>


You'll find some answers to those questions at the Hauptwerk website: www.crumhorn-labs.com</P>


I notice that they have a number of 3-manual theatre organ sets available.I really do think that Hauptwerk is the best way for you to go. If you have some specific questions, why not join their chat-list and ask away!</P>


John Reimer (who turned 69 and a half today)</P>

[andyg]

Re: My Friend wants to build her own Virtual Theatre Organ. Can you help?



Miditzer offers a very useful 3 manual organ for a 'donation' of only $100. That money goes straight to theatre organ preservation and restoration, not to the Miditzer team BTW.</p>

Miditzer can be controlled by physical stop action and there are plenty of threads on their site about it. www.virtualorgan.com</p>

And then there's Milan Digital Audio, with their Haputwerk sets. Virginia Wurlitzer is real nice, but I haven't tried their bigger theatre product.</p>

Andy
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[Jay999]

Re: My Friend wants to build her own Virtual Theatre Organ. Can you help?



Thanks guys! Ethel was supposed to drive up tomorrow afternoon, (Saturday), but.....Atlanta is out of gas. We are being affected by the slowness of the Texas oil refineries coming back, after the hurricane. Ethel's car is a 1970 Lincoln Mark III. It drinks gas like a bull dozer. So we're postponing until the gas situation is resolved. In the meantime, I have downloaded some pretty impressive stuff from Hauptwerk, and of course with that, the recommendations from Milan Audio. From my limited knowledge of the components needed, it seems that we would need to add quite a few extra components to the system if we went with a Windows application, as compared to a Mac Pro application. For the Hauptwerk/Milan package, they, themselves, seem to recommend the use of a Mac application, especially if starting from scratch.</P>


Of course, this is the recommendation from just one company. I have not delved into the Miditzer or Artisan offerings yet. (Just trying to do some homework for Ethel in these early stages.)</P>


I'm finding myself backing up over the printed materials I have downloaded this week, trying to learn some new jargon, like..."stand alone", "doggle", "audio/sound interface", "polyphony", "third parties", "wet and dry samples", "sound card", "engine"...etc. Then getting into "Intel Macs", "G4/G5 Macs running Mac OSX", "Steinberg ASIO audio drivers", "Steinbert VSTi plug-in versions....both of which deal with use of Windows related programs, if we chose Windows instead of Mac.</P>


Then there are further things like "32-bit audio signal path", "High-resolution output, 32 bit floating point format". WOW! </P>


So, as I told you guys before, there are Xs in my eyes, and the wheels in my head are about to strip a gear! But...never fear, I'll get to the bottom of all this jargon, one "mega-boon-doggle" at a time. If any of you can offer a place where I could refer to a "glossary" it would bevery, very, verymuchappreciated.</P>


Thanks for your continued help and support!</P>

[Eby]

Re: My Friend wants to build her own Virtual Theatre Organ. Can you help?



Hello Jay, </p>

Hope you've progressed a lot in learning new 'jargon' [Y].</p>

a 'dongle' is a lock to protect software, Hauptwerk wouldn't work(well, it would, but keep playing the annoying chime) without a 'dongle' attached to your computers USB port.</p>

audio/sound interface - a device that converts analog audio to digital and back, usually these devices have multiple inputs and outputs.polyphony - the maximum number of notes the software/hardware can process at a time, a human can play 10+2 keys on an organ, but this isn't the case with a virtual organ. eg, a single note with clarion, diapason &amp; gemshorn stops pulled out will be 3 or more note polyphony depending on the sample set instead of one.</p>

Intel Macs and G4/G5 Mac's - Apple used G4/G5 processors from IBM / Motorola few years back, technically Intel &amp; G5 chips are different, eg. an electric engine &amp; a diesel engine. When buying a new computer, always go for the latest.</p>

----------------</p>

apart from a powerful computer with atleast 4 Gigabytes of RAM and Hauptwerk software, you'll need a Firewire MIDI interface with lots of inputs and outputs (MIDI information from the console is fed thru this and the processed audio is diverted back to the interface 'output's) a good amplifier, speakers and a pair of sub-woofers. and most importantly midifyed or MIDI compatible organ console.</p>

hope this helps [:)]</p>

[FrenchHorn8]

Re: My Friend wants to build her own Virtual Theatre Organ. Can you help?



Jay and Ethel,</p>

 What a kind offer!  I have just started to learn jOrgan, but I think I'm getting a pretty good grip on it.  I am using it as the relay for my 7 rank Wurlitzer.  What I don't know much about though, is using the sound samples and getting them to sound good.  I would suggest having a MIDI channel for each manual plus one for each second touch manual.  I have a total of 6 MIDI channels out of the console since it's a 2 manual with second touch on both manuals and pedal.  I haven't looked into combination actions/expression/traps yet, but I know jOrgan has a combination action that will drive SAMs.  Is the stop action e-p or electric?  Is there any interest in adding real pipes to this project?</p>

[Guest]

Re: My Friend wants to build her own Virtual Theatre Organ. Can you help?



Jay and Ethel</P>


The project needs to be broken into 3 phases as follows:</P>


1. Build a Midi interface and control into the console. The keyboards generate the midi on/off commands, the stoptabs generate the rank control midi data, also the swell pedal and possibly combination action system. 3 keyboards + pedal needs 4 Artison micromidi input boards and probably 2 or 3 CPU boards. These are fairly easy to wire and control is via adefinition (.udf) file. You need a PC with a USB - Midi interface. Artisan has a midi monitor program (free) to test the system as it goes together. I like Artisan - their components are well designed with quality components and they have been most helpful. I forgot, you need several input boards and at least one CPU board for the stoptabs. The combination action will require some more boards. You can wire each keyboard and check as you progress. </P>


2. Put together the synthesizer system. If Haupwerk will accept standard stoptab midi data then you don't need a relay function. If you need a relay then Artisan modules will accomplish that.Since I have pipe, I use the relay function.</P>


3. You need to decide how many audio channels are necessary plus the amplifiers and speakers. How much space is available for speakers. This can be a major obstacle in a small room. </P>


4. With this system you could later easily add a rank or two of real pipe.</P>


What is the condition of the console and what key and stoptab arrangement does it have?</P>


I would prefermagnetic reed switches for the pedal. </P>


This sounds like a wonderful project to do in discrete stages. What kind of SAMs does the console have? Is the original capture system intact and working? A capture system would involve probably the greatest wiring effort. </P>


Al</P>

[Jay999]

Re: My Friend wants to build her own Virtual Theatre Organ. Can you help?



Eby....thanks, thanks, thanks! You know, not being in the computer and digital organ market place everyday is my real problem...I'm sure. This stuff makes sense, once I know what it is. So please do check in with me once in awhile to help me out with the "jargon". </P>


So far...in my investigation...I must say; I think the digital organ people are givingthemselves a big negative, shot in the foot,by not breaking this stuff down for the uninitiated to understand. I have sold pipe organs to the uninitiated public for years by the cardinal rule...KISS.</P>


Yes, I do think that the bottom line in making up a fine sounding instrument will be to have the fastest, and the most powerful computer that Ethel can afford...although, from the Hauptwerk notes....I'm not so sure that we willneed to just blindly go the Cadillac route, when she thinks that 12 ranks would be enough. This organ will be placed in her new music room, which consists of her old two car garage. She's closing in the end, and having a wood floor installed. The 12 foot ceiling is a plywood covering, nailed into the roof trusses. I think she'll have a nice acoustic in there as long as not too much furniture or floor coverings are put in there.Ethel pretty well feels the same way I do about too large of an instrument in a small space. Itcan be overwhelming. With the correctly chosen stops, less is more. The loudest stop she's specified would be a Style D Trumpet. The softest would be a pair of Dulcianas or Gemshorns. Again, because of space considerations, a Solo String would be too dominant...and we've agreed that a pair of Salicionals will be plenty loud enough for this small of a space.</P>


Although I have not done all of my research,I liked the Milan/Haptwerk Wurlitzer 3/31, because she would be able to have her choice of stops. That's a BIG specification, and if I understand correctly, We will be able to pick and choose what stops she wants, and ignore what she doesn't want.I will definately go shoppingthe other brands mentioned by our kind friends here on the Forum.</P>


Once I have built a clear understanding of what's needed (thanks very much to your help), I will move on to the others, one by one, and learn what they have to say, too. Ethel and I will ultimately lay out two or three brands to tonally evaluate, and hopefully be able to visit the builders factory showrooms...or at least an installation or two.</P>


I've always hated building a church organ with an organ committee constantly looking over my shoulder.But in this case...it's very, very much welcomed, and appreciated. Thanks again for the glossary, EBY....I hope you will patiently help me through some of the other terms as I encounter them.</P>

[Jay999]

Re: My Friend wants to build her own Virtual Theatre Organ. Can you help?



Hi Trevor...thanks very much for chiming in here. I tried entering the http and then the www in front of jOrgan, but got no place. I'm on google...so that may be my problem...don't know. Help if you can.</P>


I recently acquired a 3 manual Robert Morton horseshoe console, thinking that I would use it for my own 11 rank project. Well...as so many organ projects go...I've given up on having the time to do that, and I took the Morton console over to the warehouse. Ethel and I were just "bumming" around one Saturday not long ago, and I happened to need to go by the warehouse and pick up something. When she saw this console, she just fell in love with it...so it's hers! I suggested buying a used Allen and putting all the components inside the Robt. Morton. But she doesn't care for that idea, and wants to build up a small 12 rank custom spec, which would cost her a fortune, if done by such expensive folks as advertise in the ATOS inside front cover. I'm sure you know the brand that I'm referring to.</P>


Ethel's new music room, (a converted two car garage), is really too small to enjoy pipes....as found in high pressure organs like a theatre organ. She is a first class musician, and wants an instrument that will fill that small spacewith good versatility. Yet, at the same time,be gentle on the ears. Even a five rank theatre organ in that small of a space would be waaaay over the top in volume, and have noblend, bloom, ordetectable fine voicing. One of the digitals, cranked back about 1/3 of it's actual power is what she's after. The instrument should sound, at that level of volume, muchas it would if you were playing it in a theatre setting.</P>


From the way you describe it, The jOrgan situation you are talking about sounds a lot like one of the solid state companies I use for my church organ business. While the computer and MIDI applications for the pipe organ are fantastic, the digital sounds they offer leave a lot to be desired. I understand completely.</P>


With the Morton console....it is electro-pnumatic, with a badly damaged combo action relay. I plan to do away with the pneumaticactions, probably redo the bolsters so they will accept electric stops. In Ethel's case, she doesn't like SAMS, as they bounce if you make a quick jab for a stop tab. So much the better...as used Reisners don't bounce, and will be a heck of a lot cheaper than new actions. Reisners are quite stable, except for the switch contacts on the back...which are easy to repair if the contacts are broken.</P>


The manuals, pedal, and second touches would all have to be wired up to (I'm guessing here) some sort of individual ribbon cables, which in turn would be plugged into a MIDI matrix board, or box...whatever that is called. I would think from there, that the MIDI signals (keyboards) would enter the central processingcomputer. From that point, I have no idea of what takes place at this time....as I am just beginning to learn about this configuration. I think that the stop switches would probably be wired with four circuits per unit....one forstop on, one for stop off,which would also be a signal for the computer to memorize if you set the stop tab into a piston....then the third and fourth wires would connect to a stop driver card, which would be bossed by the computer combination action memory, telling the driver card to switch on the appropriate magnet to turn the stop tab on or off. There might be a little more wiring with the old Reisners, in comparison to a set of SAMS, but the configuration would probably be about the same.</P>


Of course, I'm talking from experience I have had with pipe organs, equipped with solid state relays...not digital electronic organs. So I may be all wet...still learning a lot about Virtual organs. I do appreciate your suggestions and offerings of knowledge. Please stay in touch. If I can offer you any assistance in your pipe organ ventures, please know thatI'll be glad to help.</P>

[j reimer]

Re: My Friend wants to build her own Virtual Theatre Organ. Can you help?



Jay,</P>


Do a Google SEARCH for "jOrgan" and it should come up with the web address.</P>


But I warn you that jOrgan is not for computer Dummies. Also, as has been suggested in one of the posts above, you may find the sound samples disappointing. </P>


This should not be taken as a criticism of jOrgan. jOrgan is very impressive as an operating system which as well as being free, is constantly being upgraded andmakes minimal demands on the capabilities of the computer. I plan to get more and more into jOrgan, and to make up my own sound samples and have them available for free, as other jOrgan enthusiasts are already doing. </P>


John Reimer</P>
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[Jay999]

Re: My Friend wants to build her own Virtual Theatre Organ. Can you help?



Hi Al...and J Reimer. Well guys...all of this is starting to be "jargon" again. That's my problem. I think perhaps the best approach for me to learn this is to break the suggested components down into their "generic" labels, and learn what each one does....From what I can gather so far, it seems like one system needs a, b, c, components hung onto brand M computer, while d, e, f, components need to be hung on Q computer. So let me start with just the console...and state what I have learned so far.OK?</P>


THE CONSOLE: Solo keys, Great first touch keys, Great second touch keys, Accm first touch keys, Accm second touch keys, Pedal keys....a total of 6 discrete MIDI divisions wired into sixMIDI INPUT BOARDS. Then the electro-magnetic stop tab magnets are wired into a DRIVER BOARD, that will activate the on/off functions of the stop tabs in combination action mode, when the CENTRAL COMPUTER tells it to. Also, at the same time, the stop tabs on/off contacts (that turn on the stops) are wired into another MIDI INPUT BOARD. Also, the pistons and toe studs are wired into another MIDI INPUT BOARD. The crescendo pedal, expression pedals are hooked up to a LINEAR RHEOSTAT (for each pedal) and those are wired into a MIDI INPUT BOARD. Now that all the MIDI INPUT BOARDS are wired from the anolog equipment, they are connected intothe CENTRAL COMPUTER via a multi port (input side) USB plug, which compresses down to a single USB PLUG, and plugged into the CENTRAL COMPUTER ...USB PORT. Am I following correctly so far??????</P>


If I've left out something in the console equipment, please do let me know what it is, and how it works. I've got to learn what it does, so I can keep this stuff straight in my head. Let us call this "Lesson One". OK.</P>


Please don't go any further than the console at this time. Let me absorb and learn everything I should know here, first. Thanks guys!</P>


Incidently, talked with Ethel over the phone today. She can't get up here to Kennesaw because of the gas shortage. But she tells me to say a BIG HI to all you guys. I'll add to that and say a BIG THANKS for your patience and teaching this computer dummy.</P>