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**m&m's** · 09-17-2009, 07:18 PM

Re: Defining the ranks of an organ...

Well, let's see......

What kind of organ do you want to build? By that, what will the organ be used for? Will you play Baroque music (Bach and Buxtehude)? How about Romantic music, such as Widor or Vierne? Or will you play theatre/popular music? Would you possibly limit yourself to religious music?

I would assume that you will have two manuals and pedals. The lower manual, if you are doing classical music, would be the Great, and normally would have a Diapason or Principal Chorus, 8', 4', 2', and one or two Mixtures if the organ is big enough and in a large room. It also would have an 8' Flute of some type, and maybe a 4' Flute. It might have a softer stop, such as a Dulciana at 8'. Finally, at least one reed, again if the organ and room are big enough-a Trumpet doesn't come off well in the average family room or basement.

The upper manual would normally be a Swell, with probably a Flute chorus at 8', 4', and 2' , possibly also at 2 2/3' and 1 3/5' pitches, maybe a Celeste of some type, a 4' Principal depending on size of organ and room again, and finally a Reed, usually an Oboe in small organs. It could also have a Mixture. Such an organ would do well for a lot of Classical and Romantic music.

The Pedals would have at least one 16', probably a Bourdon, and, if the resources are there to provide ofr them, maybe two 8' stop and a 4'. Again, if the room and organ are large enough, certainly if you have a trumpet in the Great, then the Pedals should have some kind of 16' Reed, a Bassoon or Fagotto.

The above would provide a nice small organ, with a lot of flexibility. I have done concerts and church services on organs that had the following :

Great: 8', 4' & 2' Diapasons, 8' Flute, IV Mixure, & 8' Trumpet Swell: 8', 4' 2 2/3', 2' & 1 3/5' Flutes & 8' Oboe Pedal: 16' Bourdon, 8' Diapason, 4' Octave, 16' Trombone & 8' Trumpet

It's amazing what you can do with just that small specification!

But first, you have to know what you are aiming at-in other words, what are you going to play on the organ?

**regeron** · 09-18-2009, 05:13 AM

Re: Defining the ranks of an organ...

m&m's, those are very good suggestion. And within those ideas, you can see the following:

Representation from the 4 basic families of organ tone - Principal, Flute, String and Reed, with Principal and Flute getting the most representation.

Representation of the various pitch levels - 8' for unison pitch, 4' for an octave higher, 2' for two octaves higher, 16' for an octave lower, and so on, with the 8's leading and 4's following close behind.

Within each tonal family, there should be some variety in terms of subtle color, eg. if there are two 8' Flutes, one could be bolder, or brighter, or louder or...

The difference between a small organ and a large one is the same difference between a small and large spice cupboard. In the small cupboard, I will find black pepper; in the large one, I will find black, white, red, cayenne and chili pepper. In a small organ I will find Gedeckt [Flute]; in the large organ, Imight finda Gedeckt, a Chimneyflute, an Open Flute, aMelodia, and a Harmonic Flute.

As m&m's suggested, the type of music you wish to play will play a role in your final stop choices. However, at some basic level, [almost] all organs will follow a basic design. The field of stoplist design is fascinating and has captured the imagination of hundred's of organ fans for centuries. I hope you enjoy it the same way.

Go out and play and listen to various organs; compare and enjoy the variety of tone possible. No wonder the organ is such a great instrument!

**Guest** · 09-18-2009, 06:05 AM

Re: Defining the ranks of an organ...

I would say for starters, Baroque and mostly religious.But after saying that I'd love to expand to Romantic and other non religious music.

What makes those the ranks to "normally" have? Is it based on room size and sound volume then? How does the tonal values work out? How can I look at a space and say these ranks are what will be needed or even work?

**Guest** · 09-18-2009, 06:21 AM

Re: Defining the ranks of an organ...

[quote user="regeron"]However, at some basic level, [almost] all organs will follow a basic design.[/quote]

What is the secret for that level? I feel like I can touch the answer but it's just beyond my reach.

**m&m's** · 09-18-2009, 07:16 AM

Re: Defining the ranks of an organ...

[quote user="Daryl.Morning"]

I would say for starters, Baroque and mostly religious.But after saying that I'd love to expand to Romantic and other non religious music.

What makes those the ranks to "normally" have? Is it based on room size and sound volume then? How does the tonal values work out? How can I look at a space and say these ranks are what will be needed or even work?

[quote user="regeron"]However, at some basic level, [almost] all organs will follow a basic design.[/quote]

What is the secret for that level? I feel like I can touch the answer but it's just beyond my reach.


[/quote]

I can understand your feelings at this point. I was not trained as an organist, but got into organ playing through church connections-in many places there are never enough church organists. However, over the years I have played many organs both pipe and electronic, owned quite a few electronic organs, and listened to as many good organs as I could, both in live concert and on recordings. As a result, I have been able to figure out the basic organ requirements, and how they work together.

Diapasons or principals (the two terms are fairly interchangeable) are the true organ sound which no other instrument, or group of instruments, has. They are virtually the backbone of the organ. Therefore, in a small organ, they would dominate the Great ensemble, where a lot of playing is typically done.As I said before, even a small organ would have the Diapasons on the Great at 8', 4' and 2'. as a minimum. Then, at least an 8' Flute of some type, to be used as an accompaniment for a solo played on the Swell, or sometimes used with the 4' Octave (Diapason) and possibly the 2' Octave also, for a slightly differentensemblesound on the Great. If the organ is big enough, a Mixture is nice on top of the Diapason chorus, and a 4' Flute is also a nice addition.. Again, if the organ is big enough, something like a Dulciana, which is a soft Diapason leaning toward String quality, is nice to have in the Great as a softer alternative to the 8' Flute. Finally, it is nice to have a Trumpet or some other Reed to add to the Diapason chorus, for the times when you want a big climactic sound.

The Swell is a contrast to the Great, and in a small organ would be Flute based, with Flutes at 8', 4' and 2' at a minimum. 2 2/2' and 1 3/5' Flutes to help form the Baroque Cornet, as well as make up other stop combinations. If the organ is big enough, the Swell might have either a Flute Celeste, or a pair of Strings (Salicional Viola, etc.), the second rank tuned as a Celeste against the first. Celestes, of course, are not necessary for Baroque music, or most liturgical music, but they are nice on occasion for soft effects, and are often called for in Romantic music. Also the Swell could have a 4' Principal, to give more variety to the Swell ensemble. Finally, a solo Reed is nice, probably an Oboe, and a Mixture would be added, if the organ is big enough, and this Mixture would be different from the Mixture in the Great, probably higher pitches. The Swell of course is enclosed, and is intended to complement the Great, not simply be another identical Manual.

The Pedal is intended to complement either or both Manuals, supplying the needed bass under either or both coupled together, as well as supply stops needed for a Trio registration where right hand plays a single note line, left hand plays another line on the other Manual, and the feet play the third line on the Pedals. In another post above, I gave a minimum adequate pedal that would supply a small organ.

I know that some of this is repetitious from my previous post, but I added some explanation for the stops I chose. Getting into what Flutes might be chosen, or how the various Diapaons might be slighly different from one another, assuming that the 8', 4' and 2' do not all come from the same unified rank, opens up a much larger discussion of organ voicing. If you want to go forward with that, just say so.

I might add that all of this is academic until you have actually played a variety of organs. It is like buying a car-everything the salesman says really doesn't mean a whole lot until you actually test-drive the car. Once you have driven several, then you can start deciding what you like about one car as opposed to another.

**Guest** · 09-18-2009, 07:31 AM

Re: Defining the ranks of an organ...

So, basically, it's more of a feel thing than an absolute for choosing what you want in an organ past the most basic of ranks and you need to feel it to design one you'll be happy with.

Am I getting the concept? Or did I whiff?

**NYCFarmboy** · 09-18-2009, 07:39 AM

Re: Defining the ranks of an organ...

Depends on your budget too and what comes available in your area. If you have unlimited funds the purchase of a new pipe organ by a professional organ builder (after you have carefully played and listened to many by the same firm) would be an ideal way to go, then you could pick and choose which ranks you want.

If funds are limited you can do what I did which is fine a small "unit" pipe organ somewhere and install that pretty much yourself if you are handy with electrical wiring etc.

That is very inexpensive.....TOTAL cost including moving the organ and set up (if you do most of it yourself of a typical 3, 4 or 5 rank unit organ) would be probably under 5,000.00.

By unit I mean where one rank of pipes is at multiple pitches..i.e. a 97 note Gedeckt rank unitized to 16', 8', 4', 2 2/3', 2' over 2 manuals and pedal....and a 73 note Diapason at 8' and 4', perhaps at 2', same on a Oboe and a string and perhaps a celeste.

For that much "little" organ you can get ALOT of power and enjoyment.

but then the bug bites and you end up like me, starting out with 5 ranks and I'm at 22 ranks and still going. ;)

to hear what just 5 ranks highly unitized can do go here:

http://www.reuter822.com/2006mp3.html

Those are all old recordings I made using just 5 ranks of pipes.

**Guest** · 09-18-2009, 09:47 AM

Re: Defining the ranks of an organ...

[quote user="m&m's"]

I have done concerts and church services on organs that had the following :

Great: 8', 4' & 2' Diapasons, 8' Flute, IV Mixure, & 8' Trumpet Swell: 8', 4' 2 2/3', 2' & 1 3/5' Flutes & 8' Oboe Pedal: 16' Bourdon, 8' Diapason, 4' Octave, 16' Trombone & 8' Trumpet

[/quote]

So if we were just talking size according to ranks and stops that would be a 14 rank 17 stop Organ correct?



And I'll bite, how does the voicing affect the rank/stop "structure"(not really sure of the correct word) of a organ using the one I think I understand that is mentioned above?

**Guest** · 09-18-2009, 10:51 AM

Re: Defining the ranks of an organ...

[quote user="NYCFarmboy"]

By unit I mean where one rank of pipes is at multiple pitches..i.e. a 97 note Gedeckt rank unitized to 16', 8', 4', 2 2/3', 2' over 2 manuals and pedal....and a 73 note Diapason at 8' and 4', perhaps at 2', same on a Oboe and a string and perhaps a celeste.
[/quote]

I am not familiar with unitized ranks. What do those ranks consist of.

**soubasse32** · 09-18-2009, 01:29 PM

Re: Defining the ranks of an organ...

Unitization means that a single rank of pipes can play multiplepitches (seen as multiple stops at the console) when you press a single note.For example,when you play middle "C" and draw the 8' Trumpet stop you will hear a middle "C"; howeverif youdrawthe4' Trumpet stop (unitized from the 8' Trumpet) and play middle "C" you will hear the sameTrumpet stop, but an octave higher. The organist sees two stops, the 8' Trumpet and the 4' Trumpet; however it is the same, single rank of pipes.

The reason for doing this is that you get more stops out of a single rank of pipes; an 8' Gedeckt can be made to play at many different pitches. Unitization causes problems however:
<UL>
<LI>Pipes are typically scaled (sized) tohave a proper tonalbalance at a given pitch; when you derive multiplepitches from a single rank, scalingmismatches can cause balance problems (a screechy treble is one of the more common faults).</LI>
<LI>If you derive mutations (off-unison)stops from an 8' rank, themajority ofnotes will be out of tune.</LI>
<LI>There is a risk of note dropouts when the specific pipe you need is already being played; this is especially problematic for contrapuntal music, though it can also affect homophonic music.</LI>
<LI>A heavily-unitized organ will have many such 'holes' and will lack ensemble -the tonal resultcan be veryunsatisfying.</LI>[/list]

Thisis all rather technical, which makes it difficult to explain. We're also getting pretty far off the original topic (which itself is very complicated).

Here is my take on tonal design in a nutshell: Space planningand budget are usually the primary determining factors. Oncethe budgetis determined, the designis oftenguided by purpose-is the instrument primarily for worship/congregational singing,or accompanying...or is it for a concert hall or a home? Then further artistic considerations come into play,such as if the instrument will be baroque, romantic, symphonic, orchestral, neo-romantic, neo-baroque, etc., or 'eclectic'; within those boundaries an instrument may also be guided bya certain national style.

Additionally, all organs need tonal variety, both vertically (high and low pitches) and horizontally (such as unison stops with different harmonic color). As has been mentioned the Diapason is the primary tonal color for an organ, followed by the families of flutes, reeds, and strings. Each of those families can be further subdivided, for examplechorus reeds and color reeds.

As always, there are always exceptions to every rule.

**Guest** · 09-18-2009, 01:49 PM

Re: Defining the ranks of an organ...

I think I'm starting to get it even with how fractured I have made my original question as I didn't ask it exactly as I misunderstood it.

When designing a theoretically generic organ the ranks you start with are the Great ensemble for it's "organesque" tonal qualities (8', 4', &2' Diapasons, 8' Flute, and more ranks to complement the others if the organ is bigger) then a swell (8', 4', 2' Flute among others) to contrast the Great, and the pedal giving (generally) one lower octave to complement both the Swell and Great regardless of their ranks.

Am I getting close?

**regeron** · 09-18-2009, 03:44 PM

Re: Defining the ranks of an organ...

Daryl,

First of all, thanks for asking. It's always good for those of us who "know a lot" to be asked to explain it to those who are just starting. If we can't make it clear at some point, we lose our ability to educate.

Here's another approach to building a stoplist.

Start with one manual and one stop. I would choose either an 8' Principal or an 8' Flute, depending on how they were voiced. A gentle principal could be absolutely gorgeous in my home, as could a colorful [not dull] flute.

Next addition could be simply attaching a pedalboard that pulled down the corresponding bass keys, to allow more limbs to play the music.

Then I could add a second stop to the manual, for variety. This could mean that I now have both the flute and principal, or the second stop could be a 4' version [sounding an octave higher than the note played] of the first stop. I then continue from there, adding a stop at a time to increase the variety and flexibility of that manual.

At some point, I might choose to add a second keyboard. With it, I could either accompany on one, with a solo on the other, or I could use them in an echo or alternating fashion, in which case, the stops on the two manuals might resemble each other, with the secondary manual being a touch gentler or softer or less brilliant.

I might also choose to add some independent stops to the pedal. The most common is a simple 16' Bourdon [flute] to add some depth to any of the manual registrations that I have chosen.

When all is said and done, you should find that you have more 8' stops than anything else, then 4's, then 16's. 2's and mutations [things like 1 3/5' or 2 2/3] will come after that. I think others would agree that this is the most common allotment of pitch levels.

In this way, you can start with a single beautiful stop and build your way up as far as space or finances allow. Personally [and some will disagree - that's fine] I'd rather have one gorgeous, mouth-watering stop than a whole bunch of mediocre ones.

**Guest** · 09-18-2009, 04:41 PM

Re: Defining the ranks of an organ...

Again voicing is mentioned, I thought that voicing was tuning to the proper pitch for the pipe in it's rank. I might be missing a piece again...does voicing define a rank and how? I think I've got the small size and maybe even the mid size sort of figured out for assembling/assigning/naming a rank, but and to return this to my original post; is mixing voices, octaves and tones how you get the BIG rank numbers (Boardwalk Hall Main Auditorium Organ, Wanamaker Organ, and all the other "monsters" of the King of Instruments) otherwise how do people design those LARGE pipe organs. If not I would assume they have lots of the exact same ranks in them. Or have I gone off track?

**soubasse32** · 09-18-2009, 06:27 PM

Re: Defining the ranks of an organ...

Here are some primary concepts: Scaling, Voicing, and Tuning.

Scaling refers to the diameter of the pipe. There are other factors to consider, but this mainly is concerned with the size of the pipes at a given pitch. For flue stops a wide scale gives a flutier sound and tends to favor the fundamental pitch; a narrow scale sounds more string-like, with emphasis on higher harmonics. Diapason/Principal scales usually fall somewhere in the middle. Scales are determined before the organ is built;the builder decides how loud each rank of pipes should be in relation to all other ranks. The scale progression (from pipe to pipe within a rank) determines how loud each pipe is in relation to the other pipes within the same rank; it also determines if the trebles will be much louder than the bass, such as in a very treble-ascendent Harmonic Flute. Wind pressures are usually factored into the scaling process.

Voicinghappens in the organbuilder's shop, and should also happen on-site (also known as Tonal Finishing). The voicer opens or closes the toe hole to adjust how loud the pipe sounds; many other fine adjustments are made to the languid and upper/lower lip of the pipe; this alters the sound of the pipe and allows it to blend seamlessly with the other pipes in the same rank. Mouth adjustments (nicking) also affect the pipe's articulation (chiff). On-site tonal finishing usually requires a second set of ears within the room, as organ pipes tend to sound quite different up close. Voicing usually happens when the organ is first built, althoughoccasional touch-up work maybe doneif a pipe goes 'off speech'.

I've described the process for flue pipes; reed pipesaretreated somewhat differently.

As compared to Scaling and Voicing, Tuning should happen on a regular basisthroughout the life of the instrument, perhaps at the change of seasons or prior to an important church festivity. Tuning adjusts the slight variations in pitch that occur to pipes over time and temperature changes. Since room temperature has such an effect on tuning, it is critical to tunethe organ when theroom temperature is the same as when the organ is typically used (such as Sunday morning).

Regarding the tonal design of "monster" instruments... it is sometimes hard to say what the goal of some of these instruments is, tonally speaking. The better instruments do tend to show some form of "intelligent design." [:)] If cost and size are not an issue, then I suppose it would be easy to ask for "one of everything, at every pitch". But there are always limits, and it seems some duplication of stops is inevitable.

But my favorite instruments are moderately-sized ones that are truly musical and captivating, in spite of their lack of resources.

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