Ebay Classic organs

Collapse

Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Defining the ranks of an organ...

Collapse
This topic is closed.
X
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #16
    Re: Defining the ranks of an organ...



    "Voicing" means adjusting volume levels, brightness, etc. of a rank of pipes so that it takes its proper place in the organ. For instance, if the 8' Principal and 4' Octave are separate ranks (rows) of pipes (not unified from one rank), then they usually are voiced somewhat differently. If you would compare middle C on the 8' rank with tenor C on the 4' rank (in other words, the same actual pitch), the two would sound simlar, but not identical in sound. There are several reasons why this is so.</p>

    First, the Octave is usually scaled smaller than the base rank (8'). This is to give a slightly different tone quality as, if the two were identical, if you played a chord which included the above two pipes, it is possible that their sounds would cancel each other out, and you might not hear either one. This is part of the study of acoustics, and involves a long discussion which I do not want to get into here.</p>

    Second, the Octave stop is usually somewhat softer than the 8' Principal. If the designer of the organ wishes, it could also be voiced brighter than, or not as bright as, the 8' stop.</p>

    These reasons also apply to the 2' Octave as opposed to the 4' Octave. The 2' would be scaled slighly smaller.</p>

    These are not hard and fast rules-the designer may wish to have the 4' louder than the 8' in certain situations, or may have the 2' be louder than either the 8' or 4'. This might happen on another manual besides the Great, to give a different sound to that manual. It can also be done by using a different type of sound for the 8', for instance, suing an 8' Flute . Then the 4' Diapason might be called Principal 4' . If you have a third manual, it might not have any diapason below the 2' level. Then you would use 8' and 4' Flutes, and the 2' would be called Principal 2'.</p>

    This is common in organs designed for Baroque music, and is done to give different qualities to the ensemble of each manual. The mixtures that would go with each manual would be pitched according to the Principal of each manual division. If the Principal is 8', as on the typical Great, the Mixture would be fairly low pitched. If the Principal of a manual is at 4', Then the Mixture would be pitched higher, thus sounding brighter, and if the Principal is at 2', the Mixture would be pitched very high.</p>

    Bear in mind that two identical pipes can be "voiced" differently, by adjusting the toe-hole, the position of the languid, the lower and upper lips, etc, to sound quite differently.</p>

    Now to answer your question about the "monster"organs. Yes, they do have many ranks of pipes in them, and no doubt there may be many of those ranks that are for all practical purposes identical to other ranks. After all, if you have forty ranks of Diapasons, there are not actually forty different kinds of Diapason sound to choose from. But still the designer would not include identical ranks in the same division for the above reasons. The Atlantic City organ, for instance, has over a dozen divisions. some are obvious-Great, Swell, Choir, etc. Others have no home manual, for instance, a String division would be coupled to whichever manual the organist wanted to at the moment.</p>

    Strings are a somewhat different breed than Flutes or Diapasons-Principals. In these big organs, Strings are used to get the full Orchestral sound, and therefore there will be many ranks of Strings, probably over a hundred in each of these big organs. I have not studied the specification of either organ in detail, but it would not surprise me if the Swell in both of them has as many as ten ranks of strings, that are virtually identical to the ones in the Choir, and that a separate String or Orchestral divsion might again have a virtual identical set of ten or twelve ranks of strings, with maybe a few more ranks of strings. Also, the String or Orchestral divsion might have, for instance, three pairs of Viola ranks, each pair forming a Celeste, but each pair being at a different volume level than the others. Also, it is not uncommon have Celestes to be made from three or more ranks. For instance, a four rank Celeste would have the loudest rank at standard pitch, with another virtually identical rank pitched sharp, the third rank pitched even sharper but somewhat softer, and a fourth rank also softer but pitched flat.</p>

    With Diapasons, you might have four of more 8' Diapasons available on the Great These might vary in tone from a Baroque style Principal with a lot of chiff al the way to a theatre organ Diapason with no chiff, that almost sounds like a loud open flute. There might be identical ranks elsewhere in the organ, but maybe at 4' pitch instead of 8'. Of course you can also have Salicionals, Violin Diapasons, Diaphonic Diapasons, etc. Same with Flutes, which have even more variety, as you can have open Flutes, stopped Flutes, and half-stopped Flutes (Rohrflutes). Likewise Reeds come in all varieties, loud soft, full length (Trumpets, for example), half length (Clarinets or Krumhorns are examples), and fractional length (Vox Humanas or Regals, etc.). Mixtures contain a lot of ranks. The big organ at Ocean Grove in New Jersey, which is an organ that I admire, has one or two Mixtures on each manual and on the Pedals. If each Mixture has at least three ranks (most of them have four), the rank count can quickly add up. I think that, in the Ocean Grove organ, there are close to fifty ranks of pipes in the Mixtures, out of about 180 ranks. This organ also has probably forty ranks of Strings, as well as just about any kind or Diapason, Flute, or Reed one could want. It also plays in a seven thousand seat auditorium.</p>

    I know that all of this may be overwhelming. Bear in mind that I have been studying these things for close to forty years, and have many books on organs, and I don't consider myself an expert by any means.</p>
    Mike

    My home organ is a Theatre III with an MDS II MIDI Expander.
    I also have an MDC 10 Theatre spinet.

    Comment


    • #17
      Re: Defining the ranks of an organ...

      Soubasse, you answered while I was composing my answer, and I feel like I should take back everything I said. As usual, you hit the nail on the head.
      Mike

      My home organ is a Theatre III with an MDS II MIDI Expander.
      I also have an MDC 10 Theatre spinet.

      Comment


      • #18
        Re: Defining the ranks of an organ...



        [quote user="m&amp;m's"]Soubasse, you answered while I was composing my answer, and I feel like I should take back everything I said.[/quote]Please don't! [:D]</P>


        It'sOK forboth of us to 'hit the same nail' - if one version doesn't compute (for whatever reason), maybe the other one will do the trick. [8-|]</P>

        Comment


        • #19
          Re: Defining the ranks of an organ...



          I have to say after months of trying to understand, you have all brought enlightenment to my Dark Age of ignorance. </p>

          Now all I have to do is get you all to help me plan my first opus and I'll be set![:D]
          </p>

          Comment


          • #20
            Re: Defining the ranks of an organ...



            I'm happy to have helped!</P>


            ...but I'm forgetting my manners...</P>


            Welcome to the Forum. [:)]</P>

            Comment


            • #21
              Re: Defining the ranks of an organ...



              Thank you, now then one question unanwered</p>

              [quote user="m&amp;m's"]</p>

              I have done concerts and church services on organs that had the following :</p>


              Great: 8', 4' &amp; 2' Diapasons, 8' Flute, IV Mixure, &amp; 8'
              Trumpet

              Swell: 8', 4' 2 2/3', 2' &amp; 1 3/5' Flutes &amp; 8' Oboe

              Pedal:
              16' Bourdon, 8' Diapason, 4' Octave, 16' Trombone &amp; 8' Trumpet</p>

              [/quote]</p>

              Is this a II/12 or a II/16 organ? Do stops cross Divisions? Can ranks be in multiple divisions?
              </p>

              </p>

              Comment


              • #22
                Re: Defining the ranks of an organ...

                [quote user="Daryl.Morning"]

                Thank you, now then one question unanwered</p>

                [quote user="m&amp;m's"]</p>

                I have done concerts and church services on organs that had the following :</p>

                Great: 8', 4' &amp; 2' Diapasons, 8' Flute, IV Mixure, &amp; 8'Trumpet Swell: 8', 4' 2 2/3', 2' &amp; 1 3/5' Flutes &amp; 8' Oboe Pedal:16' Bourdon, 8' Diapason, 4' Octave, 16' Trombone &amp; 8' Trumpet</p>

                [/quote]</p>

                Is this a II/12 or a II/16 organ? Do stops cross Divisions? Can ranks be in multiple divisions?
                </p>

                </p>

                [/quote]</p>

                This was a II/17 organ. The manuals had tracker action, and all stops were independent, with the exception of the 2' Octave on the Great which was included in the Mixture, with the same drawknob working both-when the drawknob was pulled out halfway, it brought on the 2', and when pulled out all the way, the rest of the Mixture also sounded.. The Pedal had electropneumatic action, and only three ranks: Bourdon (16'), Diapason (8' &amp; 4'), and Trumpet/Trombone (16' &amp; 8').</p>

                I did once play an organ that had a similar specification, but the 2' Octave in that case was independent of the Mixture. That organ also had a Flute Celeste rank and a 4' Principal in the Swell.</p>

                It is best that stops and ranks not be in multiple divisions, especially if one is in a swell chamber. Occasionally a softer stop might be used in several divisions. For instance, if the Swell has a string Celeste, that might be duplexed to play inthe Great, to accompany solos played on other stops in the Swell, such as a Reed. Only problem is that, if you open the Swell shutters to bring up the volume of the solo stop, the accompaniment also rises in volume.</p>

                Even on the big organ that I mentioned earlier, in Ocean Grove NJ, there are stops and ranks that appear in more than one division, but again the idea is to increase the flexibility of the organ.</p>

                One thing that I didn't note earlier, in the discussion about the Wanamaker and Atlantic City organs, is that many of the stops in those organs are unified, that is, more than one stop coming from a single rank. Both organs are essentially big theatre organs and in theatre organs a rank can appear on any and all manuals and the pedals, playing at several pitches. Thus a theatre organ may have ten ranks, and over a hundred stops! You don't want this on a church or concert organ, for the reason that Soubasse stated earlier.</p>
                Mike

                My home organ is a Theatre III with an MDS II MIDI Expander.
                I also have an MDC 10 Theatre spinet.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Re: Defining the ranks of an organ...

                  [quote user="Daryl.Morning"]

                  I have to say after months of trying to understand, you have all brought enlightenment to my Dark Age of ignorance. </p>

                  Now all I have to do is get you all to help me plan my first opus and I'll be set![:D]
                  </p>

                  [/quote]</p>

                  OK, what do you want? What ranks do you have available? NYC Farmboy can give you a lot of help, as he is putting a wild setup in his house. I gather that he is single, so doesn't have to answer to a wife who does not want the Echo chamber in the master bedroom.</p>

                  But he can answer a lot of questions about unifying, duplexing, etc.</p>

                  Free free to ask more questions. Many of us are dealing with home or church organs that we are working on, or have done so recently, and we are more than glad to help in any way possible. Also, there are no dumb questions in this business.</p>
                  Mike

                  My home organ is a Theatre III with an MDS II MIDI Expander.
                  I also have an MDC 10 Theatre spinet.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Re: Defining the ranks of an organ...



                    [off-topic]</P>


                    [quote user="m&amp;m's"]One thing that I didn't note earlier, in the discussion about the Wanamaker and Atlantic City organs, is that many of the stops in those organs are unified, that is, more than one stop coming from a single rank. Both organs are essentially big theatre organs and in theatre organs a rank can appear on any and all manuals and the pedals, playing at several pitches. Thus a theatre organ may have ten ranks, and over a hundred stops! You don't want this on a church or concert organ, for the reason that Soubasse stated earlier.[/quote]One correction, if I may...</P>


                    The Wanamaker organ is not highly unified; in fact, there is no unification in any of the manual ranks! Fromthe info I have, it appears that there are only nine unit stops in the Pedal - quite an achievement for an organ with over 400 stops!</P>


                    Although it can function as a theatre organ (because of its size), it is not a theatre organ:</P>
                    <UL>
                    <LI>It is basically a 'straight' organ design with little unification</LI>
                    <LI>Thereis a wealth ofmixture work (95 ranks, plus a composed12-rank Mutation Viol mixture in the Pedal)</LI>
                    <LI>Though it does contain high pressure stops manysections are on relatively 'normal' windpressures, as low as 5"</LI>[/list]


                    This instrument is unique;a moreaptdescriptionfor it would be"Orchestral Organ". [8-|]</P>

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: Defining the ranks of an organ...

                      [quote user="soubasse32"]

                      The Wanamaker organ is not highly unified; in fact, there is no unification in any of the manual ranks! Fromthe info I have, it appears that there are only nine unit stops in the Pedal - quite an achievement for an organ with over 400 stops!</p>

                      [/quote]</p>

                      After checking several sources, I will grant that the Wanamaker is not highly unified; I was mistaken about that. I had been told by several others, including one who had played the organ, that it did have some unification on the manuals. And if the organ has 469 ranks, and 451 stops as the Diapason magazine once claimed, considering how many mixtures and double-rank stops there are on that organ, one would assume that there was some unification somewhere. Maybe all of it is in the Pedals; that is where it happens on many other organs that otherwise have very straight specifications.</p>

                      Anyhow, I stand corrected.</p>
                      Mike

                      My home organ is a Theatre III with an MDS II MIDI Expander.
                      I also have an MDC 10 Theatre spinet.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Re: Defining the ranks of an organ...

                        I have none yet, I wanted to have a design/idea of what I wanted before I started getting things so I didn't waste my extremely limited funds. Most likely I'm going to be building EVERYTHING but pipes myself...so I'll have time to decide what ranks to start with.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Re: Defining the ranks of an organ...



                          My definition of the minimal ranks that an organ should have is:</p>

                          1. Diapason 8', 4', 2'</p>

                          2. Stopped flute 8', 4', 2'</p>

                          3. Open flute 8', 4', 2' (this is out of favor for Baroque organs) </p>

                          4. String &amp; celeste</p>

                          5. Trumpet or Oboe</p>

                          6. Bourdon 16' </p>

                          Of course these can be unified ranks or for purists the ranks can be individual as desired. If all these ranks are not in a chamber, then softer versions of each will be required. Other additions after these ranks can be</p>

                          7. color reed</p>

                          8. solo reed</p>

                          9. more strings</p>

                          10. ranks with chiff, neo-baroque organs usually include a Gedackt (stopped flute) with lots of chiff on the Great.</p>

                          </p>

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Re: Defining the ranks of an organ...

                            [:D][quote user="AllanP"]

                            My definition of the minimal ranks that an organ should have is:</p>

                            1. Diapason 8', 4', 2'</p>

                            2. Stopped flute 8', 4', 2'</p>

                            3. Open flute 8', 4', 2' (this is out of favor for Baroque organs) </p>

                            4. String &amp; celeste</p>

                            5. Trumpet or Oboe</p>

                            6. Bourdon 16' </p>

                            Of course these can be unified ranks or for purists the ranks can be individual as desired. If all these ranks are not in a chamber, then softer versions of each will be required. Other additions after these ranks can be</p>

                            7. color reed</p>

                            8. solo reed</p>

                            9. more strings</p>

                            10. ranks with chiff, neo-baroque organs usually include a Gedackt (stopped flute) with lots of chiff on the Great.</p>

                            </p>

                            [/quote]</p>

                            Color reed? Solo reeed? More strings? spoken like a true theatre organ enthusiast! </p>

                            Actually the open flute is not out of favor for Baroque organs, but usually is not found at 8' level. Rather it could appear at 4' as a Nachthorn, or definitely at 2' as either Blockflute or Waldflute. Very seldom would you have a stopped flute at 2' in a classically oriented organ.</p>

                            More important than additional reeds for Baroque organ would be Mixtures and/or Mutations. Likewise, Celeste stops are a low priority in Baroque organs.</p>

                            Now for a theatre organ, or an all-purpose organ that will include playing gospel music, the more of your suggested ranks, the merrier!</p>
                            Mike

                            My home organ is a Theatre III with an MDS II MIDI Expander.
                            I also have an MDC 10 Theatre spinet.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Re: Defining the ranks of an organ...

                              You are undoubtably correct, I like the variety in a theatre organ. Almost all stopped flutes become open pipes at the higher pitches, I forgot to mention that. Also, the reeds need to go as close to the top note as possible. My trumpet goes all the way to note 61 in reeds, the vox humana goes within 6 notes of the top of the keyboard.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Re: Defining the ranks of an organ...



                                Normally, in church organs, the reeds only go to the 49th note, the rest being flue pipes. I don't know why, since a 4' Clarion goes to the 49th note, that the 8' Trumpet doesn't go all the way to the top, but generally speaking, it doesn't. I don't know if the 16' Bassoon has flue pipes for the top octave-I haven't checked inside any organ that had such a stop. My church organ only has 8' reed stops on the manuals-for a complete Reed chorus, I have to use 4'and 16' couplers.</P>


                                By the way, I didn't disagree with your ideas. I only noted your enthusiasm for Reeds and Strings as being typical of theatre organists. After all, William Barnes, who wrote several books on American organ building, suggested that at leastone third of the ranks in a pipe organ should be reeds, and he was not talking about theatre organs!</P>
                                Mike

                                My home organ is a Theatre III with an MDS II MIDI Expander.
                                I also have an MDC 10 Theatre spinet.

                                Comment

                                Hello!

                                Collapse

                                Looks like you’re enjoying the discussion, but you haven’t signed up for an account yet.

                                Tired of scrolling through the same posts? When you create an account you’ll always come back to where you left off. With an account you can also post messages, be notified of new replies, join groups, send private messages to other members, and use likes to thank others. We can all work together to make this community great. ♥️

                                Sign Up

                                Working...
                                X