Small organs / big specifications

[F Kalbrenner]

These are a couple of organs I stumbled across a while ago that are a little unique. One is an old 19^th century house organ that was donated to Camp Delaware New York the other is an old house organ built by the composer Albert Alain. What fascinates me about these organs is how they both have such big specifications for such small instruments.
I feel that there is probably an allusion to these organs especially the one at camp Delaware since only the front of the organ is visible so there is no way of telling how big the instrument actually is. And even though the specifications of both these organs look impressive (especially the Alain organ) they however probably wouldn’t still have enough power to fill a large amount of space despite their specification. Plus I suspect the pipes are probably crammed in tighter than a continuo.
I guess what I would like to see is a layout of the insides these organs. I don’t expect anyone to help since If I can’t find any information on the layout of these instruments then I don’t think anyone here can help me I just thought that some people might find these organs (especially the one built by Alain) interesting.

Below is a couple of links for the Delaware organ. One is to the OHS website the other is a video that about the need to restore the instrument and basically is just a tour of all the various repairs that need to be done. It’s particularly interesting video but there is one part of the video that shows the inside of the swell box which I find dose help me get an idea of the size of both the choir and swell division since according to the specification both these divisions are housed in the same box.


https://pipeorgandatabase.org/OrganDetails.php?OrganID=6295



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w6madk5lYu0



The next two links are for the Alain organ. One is to a website which contains information on the organ the other link is to a recording of the first movement from Boellmann’s Suite Gothique. The acoustics are a bit dry but that would be expected for an instrument that is presently located in an attic. The organ I have to say dose really beautiful but there is one thing about this instrument that’s most obvious in this recording and that is fact that there is not that much of a bass in this instrument and I suspect this may be a clue as to why these two organs are so compact.


http://www.jehanalain.ch/EN/organo.php?id_sezione=2

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pd8X_Mu98oA

[Pipeorganbuilder]

Thank you very much for this fantastic article on these two pipe organs.

[Ben Madison]

The specification is largely a highly important contract between the builder and the purchaser. Even though it might be small stop list but something you might be forgetting is the ironing out the tonal and voicing of each rank and depending on the contract that small rank list has to be gone over with the fine tooth comb, each rank must have the fine details gone over, the wood for the wood ranks, basically because you are spending large amounts of $$$$ on and instrument on any size you have the power to specify every detail that goes into the construction and voicing.

[Havoc]

As said above, it is the voicing that will be the most important of how it will sound and how it will fill the room.

[F Kalbrenner]

Thank you all for the comments. The tonal design is an interesting point to make since I have in the past come across some small organs that although have a small specification they do however have a lot of personality. I recall a music store somewhere that had a small pipe organ. The instrument only had one manual and the pedals didn’t even have any stops so it was just coupled to the keyboard. But I remember the sound that came out of it was pretty amazing. Even the bass notes I remember were actually quite good considering that the pedals didn’t have any stops.

One thing I find a little amusing about researching the two instruments is that I can get hold of information like the specification but I can’t get any information or pictures that can help me create an understanding of what it looks like inside these organs. While on the other hand with the mobile organ (Orgue de Voyage) built by Jean-baptiste Monnot I can see clearly what sort of ranks and pipes this organ contains and how it all fits together because all the pipes are displayed out in the open and not hidden in a case or behind a facade. But finding information on things like the stops list for this instrument has been difficult. And although that might not sound like a big deal since this instrument is probably an extension organ. But even then the console in my opinion still looks rather large. So it baffle me as to how such a small organ can coincide with such a big console.

[toodles]

Personally, I would not consider either of these organs to be particularly "small"--more like moderately sized.

Since you've found the Pipe Organ Database, remember that you can search that database for pipe organ builders and find organs of various sizes. You may find that some organs have better photographic documentation than these particular organs.

As to console size, that is usually dictated by the keyboards and pedal compass rather than the number of pipes, at least as far as minimum size. If you look at electronic organs you'll find the consoles are much larger than the tone generation and electronic circuitry, again size being dictated by the pedals, manuals, and stop controls.

Take a look at some of the modern tracker organs being built, and you'll get a sense of size requirements based on the number of ranks. Paul Fritts is one builder that tends to have some nice photos of his case work where you can see the depth of the case versus the width and height. Height often is determine by the longest bass pipes.

[Ben Madison]

Thank you all for the comments. The tonal design is an interesting point to make since I have in the past come across some small organs that although have a small specification they do however have a lot of personality. I recall a music store somewhere that had a small pipe organ. The instrument only had one manual and the pedals didn’t even have any stops so it was just coupled to the keyboard. But I remember the sound that came out of it was pretty amazing. Even the bass notes I remember were actually quite good considering that the pedals didn’t have any stops.

One thing I find a little amusing about researching the two instruments is that I can get hold of information like the specification but I can’t get any information or pictures that can help me create an understanding of what it looks like inside these organs. While on the other hand with the mobile organ (Orgue de Voyage) built by Jean-baptiste Monnot I can see clearly what sort of ranks and pipes this organ contains and how it all fits together because all the pipes are displayed out in the open and not hidden in a case or behind a facade. But finding information on things like the stops list for this instrument has been difficult. And although that might not sound like a big deal since this instrument is probably an extension organ. But even then the console in my opinion still looks rather large. So it baffle me as to how such a small organ can coincide with such a big console.

this is what Unit orchestras have big console and small rank count though the old Chicago Barton have a large rank count and a massive console, usually rank count with unit orchestras dictate how big the console goes, small rank count, small console, big rank count big console, though sometimes the unit count and the console is independent, it entirely depends on what you want.

I recommend you go and listen to some Al Melgard and the odd Chicago Stadium Barton Pipe organ, you will be meet with the sounds of splendor, to bad it got lost to a fire of where it was stored, the sound of it is something special.

[F Kalbrenner]

I see what you mean and I guess I kind of underestimated what can be achieved with the extension organ concept.
It's hard to put my finger on it but to me it feels like that Monnot’s organ has this strange elusion to it as though it appears to little smaller. It could have something to do with the design of the instrument since the pipes sit a little lower to the floor than most organs (not including continuo organs). But from comparing this organ to some of the Moller Artistes organs does help to make things a little clearer to me.


I’ve uploaded some random photos of Monnot’s “Orgue du Voyage” so you can see for your selves if there is something odd about the design of the instrument.









One thing also worth noting is that some of pipes seem to come and go. For example the trumpet pipes on the left in the forth photo don't seem to be in any of the other photos. And I have also noticed the same thing with a Vox Humana that also seems to come and go but this could all just be due to the fact that this organ is a work in progress plus these photos are starting to become a little out of date.

[toodles]

Note that by virtue of the title "L’orgue du voyage", this is a travelling organ--a kind of portative organ. Thus much of its structure is designed for portability.

If you'll notice in this photo https://orgueenmantois.files.wordpre...yage.jpg?w=640 the bass pipes are laid horizontally. And, of course, the various ranks are on small chests that can be positioned as needed. So, while it may appear to be smaller it is more likely it is just that its arrangement has gone horizontally instead of vertically and is broken up into small sections.

Many, if not most, small organs are not designed for portability. If a small organ is needed in a space with limited height, very often bass pipes are laid horizontally or mitered so they bend back on themselves.

I suspect that some pipes are present sometimes but not other times is a result of the need for those ranks in a particular performance, or, perhaps, relocation outside of the view of the photo for performance reasons.

I think you are over emphasizing the importance of the physical size of the organ, though, of course, an organ must always be of a size the fits in the required space. This organ is shown in locations where the space it needs is not particularly limited.

[Ben Madison]

I see what you mean and I guess I kind of underestimated what can be achieved with the extension organ concept.
It's hard to put my finger on it but to me it feels like that Monnot’s organ has this strange elusion to it as though it appears to little smaller. It could have something to do with the design of the instrument since the pipes sit a little lower to the floor than most organs (not including continuo organs). But from comparing this organ to some of the Moller Artistes organs does help to make things a little clearer to me.



I’ve uploaded some random photos of Monnot’s “Orgue du Voyage” so you can see for your selves if there is something odd about the design of the instrument.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]29215[/ATTACH]

[ATTACH=CONFIG]29216[/ATTACH]

[ATTACH=CONFIG]29217[/ATTACH]

[ATTACH=CONFIG]29219[/ATTACH]

One thing also worth noting is that some of pipes seem to come and go. For example the trumpet pipes on the left in the forth photo don't seem to be in any of the other photos. And I have also noticed the same thing with a Vox Humana that also seems to come and go but this could all just be due to the fact that this organ is a work in progress plus these photos are starting to become a little out of date.

Reginald F. had a large traveling Moller made find recording instrument, it now sits in the Pasadena civic auditorium where it is a permanent installation. High profile organist like Cameron carpenter have their own electronics, so did Carlo Curly (RIP). the Moller had to be moved in five lorry's (trucks) and could be assembled at the theater it could be played, taken down and moved again to its new location.

[Havoc]

Personally, I would not consider either of these organs to be particularly "small"--more like moderately sized.

Even large for a home organ. I remember a very small pipe organ in Jena (Germany). It was smaller than an upright piano, 5 ranks, 1 manual, no pedal and it filled a church that would seat 200-300 people without trouble.

[F Kalbrenner]

Even large for a home organ. I remember a very small pipe organ in Jena (Germany). It was smaller than an upright piano, 5 ranks, 1 manual, no pedal and it filled a church that would seat 200-300 people without trouble.

Really?!


It’s interesting that you mentioned that because I remember a while ago seeing a video of a demonstration of a small two stop chamber organ owned by David Scharder. One thing that Schrader mentioned towards the end of the video was that a church somewhere used this organ as a substitute to lead a congregation of about 400 people while their big organ was being serviced.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s0cmewbrgL4


Another video I recommend watching is of the organist Hans Andre Stamm playing one of his works on a small organ with 4 stops.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PzXrjyFV2n0


I also just remembered another organ I think that is also worth mentioning is a small three manual organ located in an apartment somewhere in France that I remember seeing in one of Dr Carol William’s interviews.



The website unfortunately doesn’t big much information on the design of the instrument but it does have a few recordings of it and it does list the specification for the instrument. But I’m a bit suspicious with specification because it lists a 32f Subase on the pedals. It could a resultant and maybe an extension from the 16f Subase but it doesn’t say it is and I know that it is possible that this organ may be bigger than it looks but I find it hard to believe the idea of an actual 32f (open or stopped) being squeezed into such a small apartment .

http://www.organsofparis.vhhil.nl/af...le-/index.html

[tbeck]

I was working on this instrument in my dining room before I moved to Puerto Rico. Sadly, I decided not to move the organ, so it sat in the dining room until I could find a good home for it. The person who was renting the house removed the pedals to make more room and moved the blower and rectifier downstairs. He also removed the stopped bass pipes which stood on the back of the wind chest. The direct-electric wind chest had a regulator built into the back. I never did have the entire instrument working, unfortunately. After I arrived in PR I realized that I had made a big mistake in not moving the instrument with me. Ah well. C'est la vie.

[F Kalbrenner]

This was an advert that I stumbled across a few weeks ago which I've been meaning to upload.
it doe not seem clear if there are any digital stops but from what I can translate I think it has 33 ranks but about 25 of them are real.

http://3ymy.mj.am/nl2/3ymy/lwwm9.htm...4URinkwrHdakNA

[voet]

This was an advert that I stumbled across a few weeks ago which I've been meaning to upload.
it doe not seem clear if there are any digital stops but from what I can translate I think it has 33 ranks but about 25 of them are real.

http://3ymy.mj.am/nl2/3ymy/lwwm9.htm...4URinkwrHdakNA

The pedal division has two ranks that are used to generate 6 pedals stops. The 16' flute is also playable on the Grand orgue, and the reed unit of 16-8-4 is also playable on the Recit. If you count each stop on the organ, it totals 33. If you count the unit ranks as one, you get 25. There are no digital ranks on this organ.