Celeste placement question (again, but slightly different question)

[NYCFarmboy]

ok folks, as noted elsewhere I've finally came across a celeste rank to add to my Reuter 822 (from the Reuter opus 195).


:SHORT QUESTION: will a celeste rank work in a swell chamber and celeste with a separate string rank OUTSIDE the swell chamber (but next to it?)






My question is: The celeste rank came from a organ where it was used with a Viole de Gamba.... similar to my Salicional rank on the 822 but maybe a tad bit darker sounding..

and on a slightly higher wind pressure....I believe the opus 195 was on approx 10 inches of air....my salicional is on 5 inches of wind.



I'm in the process of thinking about how to incorporate the 4 to 5 ranks of additions to the 822 and have decided to have a swell chamber installed right next to the original 822 organ/chest....I plan on having it enclosed behind/in some sort of glass wall with glass swell shades....

So...was wondering if I could stick that celeste in the swell chamber and use it with the Salicional rank I have that is OUTSIDE the swell chamber?

and..if the celeste rank is in the swell chamber..with the shutters closed could I get the same celeste affect using it with my Dulciana rank?

i.e. I'd have possibly two celestes...one with the swell closed to work with the Dulciana rank? and a louder celeste with the shutters open to work with the salicional rank?



Thoughts on that or is that not possible?

basic diagram: Black is present organ, red is planned....blue is sometime in the future, but the console & wind will be prepared for.

[Don Furr]

Re: Celeste placement question (again, but slightly different question)



Do you have enough room to add a 49 note chest in the theatre division? I would be in favor or adding another string to match the Celeste on 10".</p>

I don't think it's a good idea to have to open the shades to make the string and string celeste work. I would think the 10" Celeste is a good bit louder than the 5" strings. Is that correct???</p>

[soubasse32]

Re: Celeste placement question (again, but slightly different question)



[quote user="Don Furr"]I don't think it's a good idea to have to open the shades to make the string and string celeste work.[/quote]</P>


Agree - I don't think you will find it satisfactory.</P>


If you need further proof, why not make a test - if you have access to other organs in the area you could see if a Celeste in a Swell box celestes with a similar exposed stop. I don't think the resultwill be what you are looking for...</P>

[NYCFarmboy]

Re: Celeste placement question (again, but slightly different question)

thanks!! ok I ran out to the garage and grabbed some celeste pipes, they seem to work great with both the salicional rank i have as well as the dulciana rank....and it appears they will work pretty well on 5 inches of wind.....



.....



Interestingly, on the 2nd set of oboes....as to loudness...the oboes are really not any louder than the oboes I already have...they are capped and made of different material than the ones already on the 822..the 822 are lead (they droop easily)..the 195's oboes are quite sturdy in comparison and a bit darker and mellower sounding (capped)..."Orchestral Oboe 8'" is how they are named on the 195..but if you ask me they are similar in volume....I'm looking forward to the 2 oboes together..quite a nice sound in combination.

The Tibia rank is MUCH MUCH MUCH louder than my Gedeckt rank. It was loud and powerful (yet still not forced an quite beutiful at the church)..it is so loud though, that is the main reason I'm doing a swell box, just to get it enclosed..if nothing else!




What I will be doing for sure is having a very small chest made just for the celeste rank..so it can be moved around with a flexible (or somewhat flexible) air line so it can be placed where it works! (i hope!)

[sesquialtera16]

Re: Celeste placement question (again, but slightly different question)

I disagree with everybody so far.If the enclosed stop is on higher pressure and consequently blown harder than the unenclosedI say that the results will be satisfactory.I know coz we did this using a viola in one end of a room and a spitzceleste in the other end and opened and closed the respective shades and the effect sold a 4m non-winded AOB to a prestigious venue in Forest Hills Queens and Allen Organ Co has never forgiven me since.The further away the two ranks can be the better an undualating effect reminiscent of heaven.

[NYCFarmboy]

Re: Celeste placement question (again, but slightly different question)

very interesting!!!!!! maybe i should stick the celeste rank above my fireplace downstairs....that could be quite interesting visually...but would it work that far away?

(the house is open from where the organ is down to the living room below)

[Don Furr]

Re: Celeste placement question (again, but slightly different question)



[quote user="NYCFarmboy"]very interesting!!!!!! maybe i should stick the celeste rank above my fireplace downstairs....that could be quite interesting visually...but would it work that far away?

(the house is open from where the organ is down to the living room below)[/quote]</p>

Ya know it's not a good idea to put string and string celeste close together but across the room???? I've been involved in a TON of organ installs and so far, at least, I've never seen that done before. Might be interesting but the norm would be to have the two ranks in the same division working together as a pair. Maybe our friend Mr. Odell could shed some light on this.</p>

[al]

Re: Celeste placement question (again, but slightly different question)



Hi</P>


I really don't think the celeste (or any rank) will be satisfactory at 5" when voiced at 10" and enclosed Speech problems almost certainly will result. Justopening the toe will not solve all. That's quite a pressure change.If the Cel is not near the Sal you will have a weird effect since the comparative sound levels will not be constant plus the comparative voicing will vary depending on the shutter position. My cel is on same chest and 4 ranks away and has a nice effect plus that's far anough away to avoid pulling.About the Tibia,at 10" it will be too loud and at 5" speech problems will surely occur. You might trade it for a smaller scale tibia or stopped diapason. I have several extra and you might try a few pipes Of course this should be on a separate regulator &amp; trem if you want a TO effect. How about the Vox?But how well will those theatrevoiced ranks blend with the rest of the organ? Unenclosed you have no expression plus it's got to be awfully loud. Why don't you put the Cel and the Sal in the enclosed box? That would be the best solution. String ranks are small and the cel could be tc to avoid the need for an offset. The vox is small and could be placed anywhere on a separate chest.Hope there's room to get in and tune them. BTW how much static pressure does your present blower have? You might need a booster blower to get 14 or 15" to regulate down to 10" </P>


Al</P>
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[sesquialtera16]

Re: Celeste placement question (again, but slightly different question)

[quote user="Don Furr"]


[quote user="NYCFarmboy"]very interesting!!!!!! maybe i should stick the celeste rank above my fireplace downstairs....that could be quite interesting visually...but would it work that far away?

(the house is open from where the organ is down to the living room below)[/quote]</P>


Ya know it's not a good idea to put string and string celeste close together but across the room???? I've been involved in a TON of organ installs and so far, at least, I've never seen that done before. Might be interesting but the norm would be to have the two ranks in the same division working together as a pair. Maybe our friend Mr. Odell could shed some light on this.</P>


[/quote]</P>
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The 1937 DIAPASON magazine tells of EM Skinners plans for Washington Cathedral. He mentions a string ensemble of tapered and cylindrical ranks scatterd across 100ft and on opposite sides of the chancel for an ethereal mystical effect that has presence but without any exact location. Skinner was correct. Celeste stops ara a phenomenon. Far away pipes merge at some point to create an air of myticism.</P>

[odellorgans]

[sesquialtera16]

Re: Celeste placement question (again, but slightly different question)

The previous post contradicts the likes of EM Skinner as to undualating effects and the relative distances between the pipes.I think based on my own experiments and the experience of EM Skinner,I will stick with EM Skinner!

[odellorgans]

[Jay999]

Re: Celeste placement question (again, but slightly different question)



Hi NYC,.....you've got some other options to consider. Is the theatre organ chest work unit style?</P>


Is the Great organ straight, with a primary?</P>


With a total of 10 ranks playable on the manuals, and having different pressures, you could build up either a really nice romantic style instrument, (Great unenclosed....Swell enclosed)....or you could build up a really nice theatre organ.</P>


Why don't you make a decision like that first, and then start replacing pipework you don't need with pipes you will need.</P>
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[sesquialtera16]

Re: Celeste placement question (again, but slightly different question)

[quote user="odellorgans"]


Steve, by all means opine to your heart's content. </P>


I am not here to wax polemic; I speak merely from my own experience. You can either accept it or reject it. NYCFarmboy may make up his own mind about what works and what does not. Let's not confuse the issue with your apparent need to instigate conflict.</P>


[/quote]</P>


Allow me to restate:I disagree with the finding that was enunciated in the post previous to my previous post.I agree with my own experiments based on the reading of the DIAPASON of 1937 announcing the contract and specs for a new Skinner organ at WNC. SurelyI am permitted to disagree and in doing so NOT be characterized as polemic. Otherwise in order to avoid such characterizationI would be required to agree with the resident organ man in this forum and thus avoid the ire and whatever else can be thought of to say regarding my own findings. LikeI stated, the posts of what Skinner has said vesus the resident organ man are at odds.I say Skinner is correct.Period.My screen name is Sesquialtera16.If that cant be observed then maybe we should identify others on here by their names like Soubasse32 which name he has jealously protected and rightly so. Please stick to the real issue. The message and not the messenger.</P>

[al]

Re: Celeste placement question (again, but slightly different question)

Regarding Celeste placement I described my own installation which is quite successful (to me at least) and it blends well with my Allen R311 and it's celeste ranks. I suppose if you have a 100 foot room you can do as Skinner suggests, however my room is considerably smaller and I hear the celeste quite well. Most designs including Skinner's place the Celeste or undulating pair whether they be string or flute or whatever in the same chamber a few feet apart. In that case, the installation is practical, on a single chest and pulling is not a problem providing care is taken in the tuning. We just want nice celeste sound, not ethereal mysticism orspatial image enhancement. Just keep it simple. Washington Cathedral has a wonderful organ however their pipe placement in this case is the exception and is motivated by many issues in addition to celeste pulling. My advice is to keep them in the same chamber a few feet (ranks) apart and you'll be fine. I would be more concerned about the pressure issues I discussed earlier as well as the practicality of glass shutters. Most organ shutters have angular faces with 1/4 inch or so kerfs cut to improve the closed sound reduction. Maybe the experts have more info on this. By the way I am using an OSI electric shutter motor which works well.