Need help to dismantle small pipe organ in Rome NY

[Mondochuck]

Hi Folks, I'm in the process of buying a small antique organ in Rome Ny, looking to hire someone to helpdismantle and soft crate the organ, late March, early April. Hope tohave exact dates in a few days. The building is being sold and converted to offices, will only have a couple of days to remove the organ, then drive it by Uhaul to a warehouse in New Jersey. Any help or suggestions are much appreciated.</P>
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[Havoc]

Re: Need help to dismantle small pipe organ in Rome NY

What do you call small? Anyway, some generic advise based on seeing an organ builder bring in a new organ.

- get a digital camera with plenty of battery and memory and take liberal pictures. Also take notes. Or a video camera. If you can find someone that doesn't do anything else then enlist their help.
- plenty of hard boxes/crates and packing materials. If you have large metal pipes then you will need crates made for it: shallow, long and not too wide. Metal pipes are heavy and fragile!!! So putting pipes on top of each other is a no-no. Put a few in a crate with plenty of packing chips, paper strips etc so they cannot move but make sure you still can carry the crate. Smaller pipes can go in sturdy cardboard boxes with plenty of packing. Or plastic organiser crates. Wooden pipes can be put on top of each other but bet carefull anyhow. If you put boxes on top of each other make sure the pipes in it won't carry any of the weight. And make sure you don't overload the boxes, think about your back.
- go to Laukhuff or so and search their site/literature. Somewhere I have seen a list of registers with their weight. So you can make an estimate of how much pipes and weight you have to move.
- take plenty of paper tape and pencils to mark each pipe/box/crate.
- you'll need tools. And if it is an antique organ it will not have Torx, hex or philips head screws but large, very large and extremely larges slotted screws. Sometimes in confined spaces. So take large and short screwdrivers. Some spanners you can put on the screwdrivers can be useful.
- a lot of zip-lock bags for screws and something to write on them. Non-erasable waterproof etc. Put the number of the photo on them so you know where the screws belong.
- if it is antique, badly maintained and longtime not used...gloves, dust mask, hoover, etc You might have to get rid of layers of dirt and dust. And for afterwards water soap and towels.

[soubasse32]

Re: Need help to dismantle small pipe organ in Rome NY



All of Havoc's suggestions are excellent. Labelling the crates will save you a lot of frustration later.</P>


[quote user="Havoc"]And make sure you don't overload the boxes, think about your back.[/quote]</P>


I also recommend wearing a brace like this:</P>


</P>

[NYCFarmboy]

Re: Need help to dismantle small pipe organ in Rome NY

Havoc..what a fantastic and detailed post..thanks so much!

[Mondochuck]

Re: Need help to dismantle small pipe organ in Rome NY



Hinners &amp; Albertsen circa1899, 1 manual. 7 ranks Slider chests Mechanical key action, Hoping it doesn't need new tires, but will use a back support.</P>


Thanks for the great advice. Still looking for an extra set of hands to work with me.</P>
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[Havoc]

Re: Need help to dismantle small pipe organ in Rome NY

Found back the list of approx weights of ranks: http://www.laukhuff.de/english/kata_e.html then download "category 11" and look on page 15.

Is it on a balcony? If so, then you should first check how you have access to it and if the case comes apart in smaller parts or if everything has been build up in place. These days organs are often build in small chunks that are assembled. But older organ sometimes were just build where they stand. Very hard to take apart without taking every plank/beam/panel out of it. Having 2 identical lager ladders could be useful to use as ramps to lower stuff. A ladderlift would be a better solution but getting it inside might be another issue.

A few other things I forgot:
- will there be electricity? You might need a couple of floodlights etc. And some powered screwdrivers with chargers, radio, small heater to warm numb fingers. Also if there isn't light and you need to navigate stairs, provide light, plenty of it. It could also help to work a bit longer.
- talk to your insurance. For the organ during transport but also for those helping you.
- plenty of rope and blankets: the Uhaul people might help you there.

Since I'm at the moment looking at buying an organ myself I have been giving this a lot of tought recently. Just a few days ago I saw an ad for a 2M+P 10 rank one on a balcony for a very low price. But after going through the photos taken when an organ builder brought in a new organ in a church (took 2 days for the case alone).....I gave up on the logistics. This is not something to take lightly if there is time pressure.

[Mondochuck]

Re: Need help to dismantle small pipe organ in Rome NY



Hanoc, Thanks again for the great advice. Yes, the organ is on a 2nd floor balcony, butwith ample stairs. I was toldtoday the heat will be working and there is electricity. So for so good. The seller has lined up two workers/movers with a supply of tools to help me. I'm concerned about crating the large pipes as I do not have pipe trays. Any suggestions for making pipe trays? I will need to create pipe trays from what ever I can get my hands on when I arrive in Rome since I'll be flying to NYC from my home in Merida, Yucatan, then taking the train to Rome a day or so before dismantling the organ.</P>
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[soubasse32]

Re: Need help to dismantle small pipe organ in Rome NY



I've worked with pipe trays that are a variety of sizes, made from either cardboard or wood (better). The best cardboardtrays have wood bottoms and reinforcements, although I've just seen plain cardboard ones - those are OK in a pinch, if they are lightly loaded.</P>


Trays can be 12"-18" deep and about three feet wide (just wide enough for a person to be able to carry comfortably). The length can vary from 4' to 8' or so. You need many more of the smallertrays - the bass octaves can go in the longer trays. Don't worry about trying to squeeze all of one rank into one or two trays - better to have the trays bepartially full thantotally full.</P>


The trays don't necessarily need covers, although I find they offer more protection.</P>


If you have several wooden trays you can stack them so that each tray forms the cover for the one below it. A couple caveats: make sure the pipes do not protrude above the tray, otherwise the tray above will squash the pipes! Also, if you store stacked pipe trays for any length of timeitis a good idea to 'cleat' them togetherby nailing them together with several small strips of wood.</P>

[Havoc]

Re: Need help to dismantle small pipe organ in Rome NY

Good luck with the move.

[Mondochuck]

Re: Need help to dismantle small pipe organ in Rome NY



Update: Traveled to Rome NY two weeks ago to dismantle and crate the organ for shipping to my home in Merida, Yucatan. Things went well considering I knew nothing about dismantling an organ. The condition of the organ, circa 1899,was much better than I could have guessed, especially since I'd been told the organ hadn't been played in over 20 years. The blower was frozen up so I wasn't able to fire it up for a test drive, but to my surprise it was obvious the organ had aprofessional overhaul not too manydecades ago andIwas unable to see any broken or missing parts. Over all, the conditon was very good.It was a bit overwhelming after two days of dismantling so I decided to hire a crater to crate and pack it for shipping. The crater is wrapping all the pipes in acid free paper and foam wrap, building proper crates for the pipes and all other parts including the beautifuly carved oak cabinet/facade pieces. I will travel back to NY next month once I have ironed outdetails for the sea container to ship it to Merida. Mean while I'm trying to complete restoration of the front room of my house where the organ will be installed. My house is a 1700s Spanish colonial which had a "French"/ European style renovation in the 1890s with 18ft ceilings and ornate plaster detail. The room is 25 feet X 18 feet, not a large room, but not small either,having masaico tile floorswith walls and ceiling made ofplaster over limestone rocks.I think this organ is going to sound very nice in this room.</P>


Since returning from NYa few days ago I've been having nightmares about ever gettting the organ back together and in working order, LOL. Also worrying that the plaster is going to fall off the ceilings with the vibrations from the organ, oh well, will see what happens. </P>


I do have a couple ofconcerns maybe you good people could offer suggestions. Here in Merida there is always the risk ofrain or hurricane waters getting into the house. We don'tget deep water, but it's not uncommon for water to get into the houses, if only a inch or so. My concern now is protecting the organ from water and think I should build a platform, maybe 6-8 inches high to install the organ on.The trackers for the pedalsextend to the back of the organ with barely an inch or two clearanceabove the floor. Any water contact would ruin them.What material would be better to build a platform, wood or cement? What would this do to the acustics? Anything? Another issue, termites are a BIG problem in the Yucatan. Have any of you had dealings with termintes attacking an organ? If so, can you suggest types of termite treatments/ preventionsfor an organ? Anyone know an organ builder or tuner in Mexico? I inquired about the organ at the Catedral here, but seems the last tuner, a man from Sweden living in Merida, died a few years ago. I'm guessing now someone comes from Mexico City to tune the organ, will keep asking around with my limited Spanish for more info.</P>


Heres a link to my website/blog with photos of my house renovation, will try to add photos of the organ soon.</P>


www.JimSmileyVintageClothing.com </P>

[Guest]

Re: Need help to dismantle small pipe organ in Rome NY



Mondochuck, Sounds like you are putting alot of effort to have that lovely organ intalled in a really deserving setting. We have similar problems that you mentioned here in the Caribbean i.e. RAIN, TERMITES and HURRICANES! yikes! Many an organ has succumbed to theseissues over the years in this region, but I have learned one or two things from my contact with various building practices and pragmatisms of life in the tropics.</P>


1. I would Not recommend a bareconcrete platform - concrete is very porous and will soak up any moisture and trap it under the organ leading to a never ending headache with swollen woodworkwhen yourrainy season arrives (summer months usually)-humidity alone will be drawn into the concrete and it will be VERY DIFFICULT to dry out. It can be rectified with awater proof masonry sealant onto the bare concrete or some ceramic tiles sealed with a good quality spar varnish.</P>


2. Woodwork -Tropicalhardwoods are naturallytoxic to wood boring insects.Alot of pipeorgans anywhere in The West Indies are built entirely or mostlyof Mahogany, Green heart, purple heart, madeira etc. These woods will last almost forever withlittle care or maintenance and are very rot resistant as well,being located in Mexico, these tropical hardwoods might be easyfor you to source! This would make abeautiful platform once finished... Leave about 2 or3 inshes of the area under the organ open, so that if you ever do get flooded there will be some form of ventialtion under the organ to dry out the platform properly.</P>


Pine is the termite's favourite meal and they can destroy perfectly good woodwork VERY QUICKLY especially if the humidity is high (they need moisture to do their job). We protect the woodwork in our house with amix of boric acidpowder dissolved in water (available in most supermarkets)- brush it carefully onto the bare wood (nothing with a finish)and it will penetrate deep into the wood - this stuff is absolutely toxic to wood bring insects and is harmless to humans and other animals. It will also keep roaches well awayfrom your organ, borates are supposedly harmless to metals, but I would still avoid getting it on the lead and tin pipes - someone else can correct me on this - I really don't know much about preservation of metal pipework! At any rate, the powder can also be dusted around inconspicous areas of the pipe chambers to be safe.</P>


To keep your woodwork good and dry, install a few Piano dehumidifiers in and around the organ, unless you plan on keeping it in an airconditioned environment all of the time. Something as simple as this http://www.kingmaker.net/mears0.htmcan help, although there are more advanced sytems that can monitor humidity and adjust it accordingly. This is very important if the room will not be sealed from the outside environment. Make sure that any windows near the organ are well sealed - driving rain will quickly destroy wood work and wax poished finshes like shellac.</P>


I noticed you say you have plastered lime stone walls - make sure that any eaves that overhang the exterior walls surrounding the organ are properly guttered and all rain water is properly plumbed AWAY from these walls - limestone is very porous (alot more so than concrete) and the moisture will be drawn into the interior of your room through capillaryaction and can even dissolve the calcium carbonate minerals in the rock and the lime based mortar and plaster (I have seen this problem in my own house with its lime stone exterior walls!). I can't stress this enough, do your best to keep direct moisture away from your organ! it will help to keep it in tune and prevent trackers, keysetc. fromswelling and sticking during humidity spikes.</P>


Good Luck on your pipeproject and I look forward to seeing it all put together! [:)]</P>

[Mondochuck]

Re: Need help to dismantle small pipe organ in Rome NY

Mike thanks for your input, very good information. You're right about the concrete platform, it would be a moisture nightmare, especiallyif waterwere everto getinto the house. We have beautiful lumber here in the Yucatan(probably endangered) to build a platform. I'm thinking cedar or mahagany with no floor, open joist. I'd like climate control, but our electric rates are tiered and once it hit the second and third level rates, I could not afford constant AC in that room soI like the idea of piano dehumidifiers, willbuy those when I return to the US next month. As for termites, I would be afraid to "paint" that mixture onto the organ parts, but would like to hear and know more about it if anyone else has anything to add. I'm from New Orleanswhere termites area major issue. In recent years, termite baits have become the industry standard for use in the old houses. I'm wondering if termite baits would work with the organ?I know what you mean about the moisture capillary action in the limestone walls. Every house, old or new, has this problem in Merida. Luckily, the room for the organ does not have any wicking in the walls that I can see, thougha couple of rooms at the back of the house do. My roof is in good condition with all the rain waterfunneled into a 4 meter deep cenote in the courtyard. Thanks again for your suggestions!

[soubasse32]

Re: Need help to dismantle small pipe organ in Rome NY



I enjoyed looking at the photos on your site - I've been to Merida on several occasions, but unfortunately was only 'passing through' each time.</P>


You mentioned flooding - do you have any idea how high the flood waters can get in your area?</P>


Water issure death for apipe organ, so I would recommend putting it as high as possible in the room;the pipe tops can go nearly to the ceiling, as long as there is about 8-10 inches of clearance.</P>

[Guest]

Re: Need help to dismantle small pipe organ in Rome NY



Termites are really only a problem during the rainy season, stay vigilant and keep an eye out for their droppings (very fine sand like stuff) and exit holes. Maybe a can ofbaygon or some other insecticidehandy if you see them flying about - they tend to swarm after heavy rain. You shouldn't have to do anything directly to the organ woodwork, unless you notice an infestation.Here is some info http://www.copperbrite.com/termite.html on that Borate stuff if you do need to treat a spot infestation. I am having flashbacks to the old completely termite riddled piano in the Hall at my Primary school - everything from the keys to the music rack had been reduced to a spongey brittle termite leftover! Yetsome of it was still playable! We have skynormous electricity costs as well ($0.36per kilowatt hour) -US style central airis just too consumptive, you should be well off with a few well placed dehumidifiers especially near the tracker action and keydesk. Oh be aware - Roaches love the glue used in felts wood and leather components used in organ construction they will chew and damage these items if given the chance - A fewpoison roach traps or roach motels will take care of this, if they were to get into the wind chests, you will not bea happy organ owner...</P>

[Mondochuck]

Re: Need help to dismantle small pipe organ in Rome NY



Soubasse, I haven't lived in Merida long enough to have experienced any serious flooding. The Yucatan doesn't have any rivers to over flow andit sits on a limestone shelf,so most rainwater drains rather quickly. In Centro where I live, the streets can fill up with rain water, then speeding cars and buses will push waves of water into the houses. My house is elevated enough that this usually isn't a problem for me. However, I will do all I can to make sure the organ will be protected in the event water does get into the house.</P>


When were you in Merida last? The city is growing, almost a million people. North Merida, sadly, looks like any US suburb complete with Sam's Club, Costco,Home Depot, Super Walmart, Starbucks, TGI Friday. A new shopping mall opened recently complete with an ice skating rink!</P>


Mike, Roaches aren't a problem, but I'll take your advice and keep a few roach traps in and around the organ as a precaucion.</P>