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  • String pipes overblowing



    Good Morning</P>


    I have a Kilgen Viole d' Orchestre on 8" pressure (73 pipes). Some of the pipes in the top 2 octaves are sounding the octave above their correct pitch. Since strings are very delicate and temperamental ranks I would like to ask for suggestions on how to proceed before I tinker with the rollers, languids, etc.</P>


    Thanks in advance</P>


    Al Earhart</P>


    Kilgen 2M/3R theatre pipe organ </P>

  • #2
    Re: String pipes overblowing



    Sorry to say I had a Wicks dulciana pipe and a salicional pipe that were overblowing etc., I worked on them for so long, then the local guy worked on them, now they're going to the pipe fixit shop. They are very tempermental as you say. Be careful if they are almost good enough. I used different dowles, rods, etc. Not much help I know. sorry. </P>


    Jesse</P>
    Jesse Hargus
    Portland, OR

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: String pipes overblowing

      <font face="impact,chicago"><font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif">Possibly closing down the toe holes on the offending pipes to reduce the pressure would help/ I would not mess with changing the position of the rollers.</font>
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      Comment


      • #4
        Re: String pipes overblowing



        Hi Al. Before you start futzing with the mouths and languids of those pipes...check everything else first. If the trebles have been speaking ok in the recent past, and now they're fussy, probably the rest of the stop is going to be fussy about speech, and evenness of volume too, and the whole rank will be found to be on too high of pressure.</P>


        Have you pulled a pipe out of the chest and read the pressure at the chest? Are you sure the wind guage is working properly? Finally, if the pressure is reading OK at 8", how about other ranks that are winded on the same reservoir? Are they speaking normally?</P>


        Now if, you have just bought this set of pipes, and you're trying to get them going, then that's a whole different story! Let us know a bit more about these pipes, if you've just added them to your present instrument. Are the trebles on an offset that's winded from another reservoir, or.... if you remove the pipes lower in pitch that are not overblowing, and comparethe toe holes, from note to note, to note, ...are they gradually getting smaller and smaller all the way up the scale?</P>

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: String pipes overblowing



          An additional comment....I noticed today that you sign out with "Kilgen 2M/3R theatre pipe organ".</P>


          Is this the organ that you are talking about a VDO being on 8" pressure?</P>


          Kilgen built 2 manual - 3 rank unit organs, called "Orchestral Ensembles". Is that what you are referring to as a "theatre organ"?</P>


          I'm trying to help you get to the bottom of a problem, but now, I think you're "pulling our leg"....!</P>

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: String pipes overblowing



            Hi, Jay</P>


            Funny my first 40 years ago was a little I think 4 rank Kilgen with in console relay. We added a ton of stuff to that organ. It was definately a TO as we knew the theater that it came from. It was a ball and we entertained the neighborhood with that baby! The blower was a 3hp spencer we rewound for single phase plus a bank of capacitors to start (no inverters then) Lights dimm when blowewr turned on then feel the wind and the trems. I borrowed a tuba from a friend and waxed the shallots making it a real screamer. I think I still have some tapes I made if that orgab. Maybe someone could transfer to a CD. Damn, I should have studied more rather than fooling around. When I went overseas the organ was lost. Is this guy's 3 ranker actually a TO? Pressure is right though but those VDO's voiced on 8 inches should not have any overblow. I think that was a much lower pressure instrument inn a home or mortuary. A good look at the ranks should tell. Which style magnets does it have?</P>


            I got the voicing on my Allen pretty decent now and I have a lot of work to do on the pipe. It's at 6 Ranks and I'm adding a Clarinet , and moving things around, Putting some speakers in the chamber. There is never enough space plus the chest I'll use needs releathering. The magnets have flat stamped metal covers and square primaries. The round valves on both sides. Any idea of the make? Not Kilgen or Wurly or RM or Moller Maybe Hall or Page?.Going by the rack and spacing it was probably a Vox or Clarinet. Nothing else would fit.</P>


            Al</P>

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: String pipes overblowing



              Good morning Jay</P>


              Thank you for your comments and advice. Everything is welcome. A brief history (as far as I know) about Kilgen #3972: The organ is 2 manuals (horseshoe console) and 3 ranks 16' Bourdon 97 pipes, 8' VDO 73 pipes, and 8' Vox 73 pipes. A picture of a similar console can be found on page 51 of the Arndt Organ Supply online catalog. Bob Arndt told me that his console was from a 3 or 4 rank Kilgen theatre organ that he once owned. 3972 was built for the Dreamland Theatre in Hew Haven, CT in 1927 and sold to them at a cost of $2,500. I was lucky enough to get a copy of the original bill of sale from St. Louis Pipe Organ Co., whom I think still own the Kilgen name. The wind pressure, as indicated on the document, is "high orchestral, 8". The 1-1/2 h.p. Spencer blower is good for 10" static. There were also 5 chimes and a few percussions. Of interest is that the 12-note offset chest for the 8' octave of the VDO is stamped with another number which I was able to track to a Kilgen organ in the Fortway Theatre in N.Y. The organ went from the theatre to a Baptist church in lower Manhattan, NY, and then to a residence in Orange, CT, where I found it. Of course the chimes and percussions were gone and there was some water damagebut everything else was intact although unplayable. I had to leave the swell shutters and main cable behind, but those have been replaced. With all of the mechanical and electrical work done I am looking at the pipes which was the reason for my first post. I did pipe organ service work during the 1960's and from that, I learned that tinkering with pipes is best left to a professional-and that is probably what I will do with mine, although there are many professionals such as yourself who read these forums and can offer excellent advice. This organ probably has no historic value, and given that I literally saved it from going in the dumpster, It still deserves to be treated with craftsmanship of the highest order. When I have it up and running I may even learn to play it!</P>


              Thanks and Regards</P>


              Al Earhart (Kilgen #3972)</P>

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: String pipes overblowing



                Well, OK...many apologies. I am not familiar with that small of a Kilgen instrument that was intentionally built as a "theatre organ".</P>


                You've gone to a lot of trouble already. If I were to walk into your music room and try to solve your problem, here is what I would do. First, just to play a little "detective work", check all the bottom C's for an opus number. If you can't find a number on low C, sometimes it will be found on 4' C, especially in 8' stops of metal. This is only to determine if your VDO is original to your 8" pressure, as documented. If the VDO is not the same opus number, then you probably have a swapped stop, and of course, it could easily have been voiced, or regulated, on a different pressure.</P>


                Is the lower part of the VDO speaking comfortably...no fussy speech problems? How about the Flute? Is it coming up to speech without any peculiar noises? If you find groups of pipes (not just one or two notes here and there) that are also having speech problems, then lower your reservoir pressure 1/2 inch at a time and test all the pipes for good speech, each time you lower the pressure.</P>


                If you are not having any speech problems in the lower part of the VDO, or on any other stops, then pull all the pipes of the VDO out of the case and put them on a table. Line them up in a row, so you have them side by side, in order of pitch. Look at the toe holes very carefully. (If you can borrow a toe guage from your organ tech...then do so). Are all the toe holes gradually getting smaller and smaller, as you ascend up to the highest note? A toe guage will tell you instantly, if some of the toe holes are out of order.</P>


                Look at the mouths of the pipes, side by side.Are there any windwaysthat are obviously wider, or narrower, than their neighbors? Being a bearded pipe, there's only so much that you will be able to see...but carefully look over the pipes for any obvious faults.</P>


                If the pipework is obviously very dirty, and you feel that you can handle the job, it's miraculous what a warm shower bath with plenty of laundry detergent suds, can do for fussy speaking old pipework. That would be the first step taken by professionals, if you sent the pipes in to a pipe shop. I can tell you how to do that if you're interested.</P>


                Otherwise, just make corrections to the toe holes, and the mouth windways, with proper tools.Again, borrow such tools from your organ tech friend, but please don't try to open or close toes with a toe cone, or open and close windways with improper tools. It will cost you far less to ship out your trebles to a pipe shop and have them regulated, than to replace them from a botched job. For closing down toe holes, please see my thread I wrote to NYCFarmboy about regulating strings and straightening toes and bodys.I will look that article up, and direct you to the proper thread.</P>


                Apologies, again, Al. I just never knew that Kilgen ever built that small of a theatre type instrument. It's stop list suggests more of a funeral parlour instrument than a theatre organ...but there's always something new to learn. Best wishes.</P>
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                • #9
                  Re: String pipes overblowing



                  Hello again, Al.....The thread I was talking about....closing toe holes...check this out.</P>


                  Go to Organ Building &amp; Restoration. Pipe organs. Page 2..."How to repair metal pipe feet that have gotten squished". Thread #7, 28 February, 2008...11:18 PM.</P>


                  This is a long winded article which describes how to close metal pipe toes. I do get long winded! But the instructions are there and described in as much detail as is necessary.</P>


                  Again, best wishes....</P>

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: String pipes overblowing



                    I'd kind of like to know how to give a pipe a bath.</P>


                    Thanks,</P>


                    Jesse</P>
                    Jesse Hargus
                    Portland, OR

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: String pipes overblowing



                      If you are just cleaning the pipes you can let them soak in lukewarm water with a little bit of mild dishwashing detergent. You don't want to shoot any water pressure through the pipes, as it mayaffect the languids.</P>


                      After they have soaked awhile sloshthe water through a couple times to loosen any remaining dirt, then let all the water run out. The hard part is finding a secure place to dry the pipes (upright is best)so they don't fall over andget dented or bent.</P>


                      For a very thorough cleaning/stripping I haveput pipes in a large troughwith warm water and a little bit of acid (protective gloves are needed). This removes the finish off of the old zinc pipes, which I would then re-apply.</P>

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: String pipes overblowing



                        OK...The 8' basses are better done out in the yard. The 4' and above can be done also in the yard, but can also be done in the house.</P>


                        Preparation: Get a box ofAmerican detergent, named, "Spick and Span" . It's low sudsing, and easy to rinse. This is usually available at the grocery store, or local hardware store. Also, plenty of towels, a couple of washing rags that are about the same dimension as a dish washing cloth, and fluffy enough to hold a quantity of water. Pre-plan a space where you can place the wet pipes for drying over a two or three day time period. The pipes will need to be turned upside down, (mouths up). They need to lean against a wall, or similar surface at about 60 or 70 degrees. The mouths need to be turned toward the wall, so the residual rinse water that has collected in the toes will run out of the windways. Be especially sure the mouths are able to drain ALL of the residual water out of the toes, and no water will be trapped by the languid. Of course, you could turn the pipes back over, after a couple of days drying time, where the toes are on the floor, and let the pipes have another day or so for final drying.Be perfectly sure that all water has evaporated, or run out of the toes.</P>


                        Use pre-planning that the pipe toes have a cushion of several towels under them if you wash them outdoors, like perhaps, if you do the washing on a concrete driveway, or sidewalk. Inside, in the shower stall, or the bathtub, use a couple of towels there too, to cushion the toes, and to keep them from scratching the nice surfaces in yourshower floor, or tub bottom.</P>


                        Mix a largeamount of thedetergentin a water bucket, using cold to slightly warm water. Set it aside, ready to use, with the two wash cloths immersed inthe solution. Also have a fairly large (unbreakable) water glass, or ice cube bucket on hand for pouring the rinse water down the pipe.</P>


                        Pipe preparation: Take all the tuning slides off the pipes.Keep them in order, from bass to treble, and place them in an area where their placement in that area won't be disturbed for several days. Examine the beards on the pipes. If any nails are coming out of the beards, use a couple ofold dinner knives, pressing from both sides at the same time, and push the loose nails back in. If your pipes use a slight dent in the ears to hold a metal beard in place, be sure the ears are holding the beards well, and if not, again; pressing both sides of the ears at the same time with two old dinner knives, push on the ears only hardenough to reseat the beards onto the dents.</P>


                        Washing of the pipes: Outside, use a garden hose for rinsing. Inside, either use the shower head for rinsing, or the large water glass at the faucet in the tub. Use cold water for rinsing. Wet the pipe inside and outside thoroughly with water. Then flow some of the detergent solution down inside the pipe...on the outside, wipe the pipe body with thedetergentrags, even the toes. But don't touch the mouth areas with the rags at all. Squeeze the detergentout of the rags and into the tops of the pipes, several times, and let the detergent do the work of washing out the pipe. As the detergent is running inside the pipe,make some of the solution run across the windway, and pass into the toe. After several drenchings of the detergentsolution, then rinse the pipe with clear water. The rinse water,being poured into the top of the pipe, and over it's body, by a garden hose, the shower head, or the large glasses of waterfrom the tubfaucet...will render enough turbulence to wash away the dirt and grime that has been loosened by the detergent. Be sure to rinse the pipes with plenty of water, so no soap residue is left.</P>


                        As you wash the pipes, and rinse them, be fully aware of the mouths. Do not let them bang against something, and don't try to wash them with the soapy rags. Let the soapdo all the work of cleaning that area. Also, don't get lazy in thinking that you could let the pipes lie in the bottom of the tub and soak in the water. You can't see the mouths when you'redoing this, and you're inviting a dent or a bash in the mouth. You must stay fully aware at all times....don't touch the mouthsat all. Let the soap and rinse water do all the cleaning in that area.</P>


                        As described above, after you've rinsed the pipe with plenty of water, then take it to the drying location.Invert the pipes with the mouths up, and the mouths turned 90 degrees away from you, facinga wall, and leaning them at a 60 or 70 degree angle. This will allow any left over water residue in the toes to run out of the windways.</P>


                        Once the pipes are completely dry, wipe down each tuning slide with a dry cloth to remove any accumulated dirt or grime. If you want a really stunning looking set of tuning slides on your pipes, and the slides have discolored from age, or rust, you could prepare them at this time, and give them a coat of spray metallic paint.Be aware that to paint tuning slides, you have toapply a primer first, and then the final coat of paint you want to show...silver, gold, copper, or a colored paint, if the slides will show, picking up a color of the grill cloth, etc. etc.</P>


                        As you start to put theslides back on the pipes,you will again be exposing the mouths to potential collisions with other things. Be sure to allow yourself plenty of space to work on the pipes, and that any surface you lay the pipe onto will be extremely well padded and soft. As you work with each pipe, keep the mouth up, and in sight, so you are aware of it's position...that it's not coming into contact with the table top, or some object close by. The larger slides are easy to get back on.Using your fingers on the lower portion of the slide, you pull the slide slightly open, and work it over the top of the pipe. With the smaller pipes andslides, I use a pointed object, like an awl, orthe point of a metal working file.I put the smooth side of the slide over the top edge of the pipe, then with thepointed tool, I pull on the back side of the slide to expand it enough to slip over the top of the pipe.</P>


                        If you are working with slotted tuning holes, they tend to have collapsed a little over the years. If, in the process of installing the slides, you work the slide down just far enough to cover the slot, you can then insert a wooden dowel stick inside the pipe, and gently rub it against the slotted area. This will straighten up the metal against the tuning slide, and give you a much improvedappearance.</P>


                        You will be absolutely amazed at how much better a clean set of pipes will speak and sound! Of course,if the tuners have adjustedthem through the years, likecorrecting faults caused by dirty windways, then you willnow have todo some correcting to reverse those adjustments. With strings, especially, if you don't know how to make proper voicing adjustments, you will be far ahead to pay a few dollars and have a good pipe organ tech come in and perform the adjustments over the entire set of pipes. If the pipes are in good mechanical condition, such adjustments shouldn't take him more that a couple of hours work. Best wishes......</P>
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                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: String pipes overblowing



                          Thanks very much both of you for the cleaning procedure. I just got an 8' and a 4' rank of Durst principals and they need cleaning. And a windchest. One seems to have what looks like a bullet hole in it, large pipe, CC I think, little hole. Duck tape?</P>


                          Jesse</P>
                          Jesse Hargus
                          Portland, OR

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: String pipes overblowing



                            Duct tape?</P>


                            You might try some of that "aluminum foil" duct tape. I have some that was left behind by an air-conditioning contractor. It is the same size as duct tape, but is made of heavy aluminum foil and one peels away a paper backing to expose the glue. Nice stuff, but probably expensive.</P>


                            Good luck!</P>

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: String pipes overblowing



                              Hi saudade. A follow up...my assistant reminded me that in the past we have dried pipes in the horizontal position. Just clear an area that you can leave un-disturbed for several days. Put down 3 or 4 water absorbing cloths of some kind....we used in that job, bed sheets and a couple of old cotton bed spreads. Gently lay the pipes down on that, mouths down. The water will trickle out of the toes and finally dry. However, it will take a few days extra to dry.</P>


                              Your 8' and 4' Principals will clean up fine. However, the windchest won't go through this type of cleaning very well...ha ha.</P>


                              The hole in the CC you asked about...sure, duct tape is not going to hurt anything. As mentioned by Menchen...you can also use the shiney bright duct tape, too. Bullet hole, eh. I could conjure up in my thoughts all sort of scenarios about a jealous preacher and an unfaithful organist.</P>

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