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  • Floating Organ



    Hello all,</p>

    It's been a while, hasn't it? My goodness. Since the last time I posted something on the forums, I've moved back from Michigan to Texas and have played more recitals than I can count to on both hands. But I've been mulling over a thought in the last few weeks, and I'd love to hear input from other organists.</p>

    When I say "floating organ," the title is a little deceptive because I'm not referring to an organ floating out on a lake somewhere (hey, if we can put an organ outside in California, why can't we put an organ on a boat in New York?).</p>

    We all know what "floating" divisions are. And in case you don't, I'll go ahead and explain. A floating division is a division that does not "reside" on any particular keyboard; instead, it is coupled to the keyboards in order to be used. Rodgers was (and to an extent, still is) seemingly obsessed with them. I can't tell you how many of those little two manual Rodgers I've seen with a floating Positiv division.</p>

    My proposal is this: what if every stop on the organ was "floating"? In other words, instead of having stop knobs, you have (for a 3 manual instrument) 4 buttons for each stop - one button for each keyboard. Simply, the name of the stop is provided, and to the right of it are the four buttons, labeled "I", "II", "III", and "Ped". The stops are still grouped in divisions on the console, however, primarily because some divisions would be enclosed, and others would not. Within the division groups, stops are organized on the stop jamb top to bottom in descending order - starting with the flues, and then the reeds.</p>

    What does this do? Well, I'm glad you asked:
    </p><ul>[*]It eliminates "borrowing." Instead of having two identical stops located in two different places, you have a single stop (found on the primary division) that can be coupled by itself to any keyboard.[*]It eliminates unison couplers. Because any stop can be coupled by itself to any keyboard, there's no reason to have unison couplers. Sub and super octave couplers apply to any stop coupled to the keyboard that the coupler is for. In other words, if you turn the 8' Swell Trumpet on the bottom keyboard, and turn the 16' coupler for the bottom keyboard on, the swell Trumpet will also play at 16' on the lowest keyboard.[*]It extends the flexibility of the instrument. Organists often brag that the organ has the potential for practically an unlimited number of different combinations of sounds. Why not extend that? Suppose the 8' Flute on the Great worked poorly as a solo stop, but the 8' Flute on the Swell was wonderful as a solo stop. But the only strings on the organ are in the swell. With this "floating organ" setup, you could couple the strings to one manual, and couple the swell flute to another. And immediately, you've created a new sound that otherwise would have been impossible.[*]Much like the sub/super octave couplers, the Divisional pistons no longer work as divisional pistons. Instead, they function as "keyboard" pistons - only applying to the stops coupled to that particular keyboard.[/list]

    Well, as far as I can tell, the only real downfall of such as system is that it becomes slightly more challenging to turn stops on or off individually while playing. But the advantages of having a considerably more flexible instrument seem like they would outweigh the downfall.</p>

    I am aware that a (mechanical?) organ somewhere in France uses a system where every division is floating. But my proposal calls for every *stop* to be floating.</p>

    Thoughts?</p>

    [H]</p>

    </p>

  • #2
    Re: Floating Organ



    It's not a bad idea, the only downside to that is that solenoid draw knobs are expensive, and your proposal would effectively double, triple, or quadruple that cost.</p>

    Also, it would only eliminate borrowing between manuals. It would not eliminate borrowing at different pitches, which I believe when implemented carefully and deliberately can provide a worthwhile result.</p>

    I have been frustrated by not being able to get to stops I want because they're on a manual I'm using for something else, so I can certainly understand where this idea comes from.
    </p>

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Floating Organ



      Let me take a "devil's advocate" stance.</P>
      <UL>
      <LI>
      <DIV mce_keep="true">What would happen with stops that are voiced, say for the Great, when played on the Choir?</DIV></LI>
      <LI>
      <DIV mce_keep="true">How would the Swell pedals/boxes work? Would there be a conveyor belt to movea stopto a Choir box, or to an unenclosed Great? (Facitious, I know, but just to bring up the point).</DIV></LI>
      <LI>
      <DIV mce_keep="true">What if that 16' were voiced for the Swell, yet played in the pedal?</DIV></LI>
      <LI>
      <DIV mce_keep="true">How would this work in a Mechanical organ?</DIV></LI>[/list]
      <P mce_keep="true">Can you imagine how many traditional organbuilding rules this would fracture???!!!! I LOVE IT!!![:D]</P>
      <P mce_keep="true">Michael</P>
      Way too many organs to list, but I do have 5 Allens:
      • MOS-2 Model 505-B / ADC-4300-DK / ADC-5400 / ADC-6000 (Symphony) / ADC-8000DKC
      • Lowrey Heritage (DSO-1)
      • 11 Pump Organs, 1 Pipe Organ & 7 Pianos

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Floating Organ




        Stefanussen, you mentioned the cost for such a system. Drawknobs are indeed expensive. However, the system I suggested only uses small square buttons that are illuminated with LED's when activated. A quick search on Google reveals that each button could be purchased for as low as $3, plus whatever it would cost to engrave "I", "II", "III", or "Ped" as necessary. Thus, it seems to me that even if it did cost more, it wouldn't be considerably more.</p>

        You also mentioned unification, and you're exactly right - it doesn't eliminate it. But I fail to see your point, because unification could be implemented on this system, simply by adding another 4 buttons (on a 3 manual organ) for the stop an octave higher.</p>

        Michael, you're also right. Such an instrument would break all the rules of traditional organ building. For it to work effectively, every stop would need to be voiced to work well with the entire rest of the instrument. Trust me, I understand that a Great Diapason will be (and should be) different than that of a Choir Diapason. But my point is that they should be designed in such a way to work with anything else anyways.</p>

        As I mentioned in the original post, stops would be organized into "divisions" - primarily due to swell boxes. The keyboards themselves do not receive specific names, such as "Great" or "Swell." This system isn't perfect, of course, because to technically have the most flexibility, you would need an organ where every single stop was in its own swell box. "Coupling" an 8' Trumpet in a swell box to the lowest manual does not mean that the stop becomes unenclosed - it's physical location remains unchanged. But what does change is where you can access it.</p>

        To use your example, what *would* happen if a 16' were voiced for the Swell, but played in the pedal? Isn't that a good thing, if you want it? One downfall is the issue with pedal notes - after all, a standard pedal rank has 32 notes. Perhaps pedal stops could only be played on the pedal, or the stop could couple, but only the 32 notes, or perhaps the organ could be built with 61 notes in the pedal ranks...</p>

        This would not work on a mechanical instrument - it would have to have a digital action.</p>

        *****</p>

        One final thought that I wanted to point out is that <u>part of the beauty of such a system is that it could be played exactly like the typical organ</u>. When playing it, the organist can restrict himself to only the stops within that division. But it also gives the organist considerably more control.
        </p>

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Floating Organ



          Dude,</P>


          I can be as devilish as Michael, if I want to!However, I've often wondered the same thing for the same reasons -- wanting to use a particular stop in a division other than the one where it resides. But it does go against much ingrained (for good reason) organ-building convention.</P>


          While it might be confusing to the player to fully implement your concept, and even more confusing to beginning players or the less organ-savvy, certain aspects of your idea can work very well. Indeed some of what you suggest is already used in a lot of existing instruments.</P>


          My experience is more with digital organs than with real pipes, so I speak more of digitals here. But I know it is very common with Allen, Rodgers, and other digital builders for a given stop to be used in more than one division and to act in every way as a native of that division (except that it may express with its home division only). Many of the Allens I've installed have a single celeste stop (a pair of violas) that can be played from either manual and in fact couple with whichever manual they are drawn on, while remaining resident in the swell and expressing with the swell.</P>


          Another example is the Festival Trumpet on many of the Rodgers Trillium models that can be drawn in any division as if it were native. The variation in this case, though, is that this stop does not couple to another division with the regular intermanual couplers.</P>


          Older analog Rodgers organs, prior to the MICASKO series, often had only a unit flute, a unit diapason, and a unit reed (along with a few straight stops) and these three units provided the flue stops in all the divisions. This allowed the economical use of the generators and keyers while giving maximum flexibility to the player.</P>


          So, keep on refining your concept. It might be possible to implement more of it than you know. It would certainly be a workable idea for one of the new software organs you can create on a computer.</P>


          John</P>
          <P mce_keep="true"></P>
          John
          ----------
          *** Please post your questions about technical service or repair matters ON THE FORUM. Do not send your questions to me or another member by private message. Information shared is for the benefit of the entire organ community, but other folks will not be helped by information we exchange in private messages!

          https://www.facebook.com/pages/Birds...97551893588434

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Floating Organ



            Maybe there's hope for that !@$%#$%^ Cor Anglais on the Great yet!!!!! There's nothing soft enough on the Swell to accompany it, so it's totally useless to me unless this Floating Organ concept works. Why would Allenever put such a useless stop there?</P>


            Maybe we'll help develop a new concept organ?!</P>


            Michael</P>
            Way too many organs to list, but I do have 5 Allens:
            • MOS-2 Model 505-B / ADC-4300-DK / ADC-5400 / ADC-6000 (Symphony) / ADC-8000DKC
            • Lowrey Heritage (DSO-1)
            • 11 Pump Organs, 1 Pipe Organ & 7 Pianos

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Floating Organ



              &gt;&gt;I can be as devilish as Michael, if I want to!</p>

              John,</p>

              I wish you would be! I'd love to consider all of the pros/cons of such a system.</p>

              &gt;&gt;But it does go against much ingrained (for good reason) organ-building convention.</p>

              Organ building conventions are, of course, ingrained simply because they have always worked. But what if a new idea or system works better? I'll be the first to admit disappointment in some of the most recent "developments" for the organ specifically, but how are we to improve on something if we're not willing to step out of the norm and try something new?</p>

              The examples are you mentioned are exactly the nature of what I'm talking about. Many of the Allens that I've played have the Swell Flute Celeste II also on the Great, and often have a 16' Swell flute on the Pedal. And it is more than common to find a pipe organ with a single Festival Trumpet or en Chamade found on multiple divisions.</p>

              My suggestion is (obviously) really nothing new - it's simply enlarged. The idea is that an organ is unified to the extreme; every stop is available on every keyboard. The main difference is how you organize those stops. Instead of putting another stopknob for a Swell stop in the section for the Great, you simply put that stop in the Swell section - where it's home is.</p>

              It doesn't seem like it would be too difficult to adjust to, even for the least organ-savvy. Different - but not difficult.</p>

              I don't really know... The only way that we would know for sure if it would work is if it was attempted!
              </p>

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Floating Organ



                floating organ.... hehe</p>

                </p>

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Floating Organ

                  Arn't organs like this already being built? I have worked on at least 3 unit organs that would fit into your plan.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Floating Organ



                    Aloha soundboarddude,</p>

                    After reading your posting I immediately thought about *Organs Of Variable Structure*:</p>

                    <span class="Apple-style-span" style="color: rgb(85, 26, 139); text-decoration: underline;">VSO
                    </span></p>

                    'Tis a quite tantalising idea I must admit.</p>

                    Cheerio,</p>

                    Kphone </p>

                     </p>

                     </p>

                     </p>

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Floating Organ



                      I definitely like the idea. I hate it when I want to use one set of stops for something, but can't because I need to use another stop in the same division for something else completely unrelated. To explain, on the Allen at my high school, the Swell divison had a chorus of flutes that I very much liked, and I wanted to play the right hand for Bach's Wachet Auf upon the Swell (or Swill division as I remember it), but the left hand is really supposed to be a trumpet stop, and guess where the only manual reeds were, that's right, Allen put no reeds on the Great (or Grating), and so I was relegated to playing the right hand on the Principles of the Grating, which I didn't like for their sound in the first place. If I could have had those Flutes on the Grating or the reed on the grating I would have been happy.</P>

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Floating Organ

                        Sounds to methat what you are describing has already been built, many times. It's called a theatre organ.
                        Mike

                        My home organ is a Theatre III with an MDS II MIDI Expander.
                        I also have an MDC 10 Theatre spinet.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Floating Organ



                          Austin766, this type of situation is exactly what I'm talking about.</p>

                          Another piece that immediately comes to mind is the Capriccio Cuckoo by Richard Purvis. Strings in the left hand, melody on a clarinet and flute bird calls in the right, and a pizz pedal. The piece can be a nightmare to play on an organ that doesn't have a lot of resources.</p>

                          I'm sure we can all think of an instance (or at least sympathize) when a piece we were playing called for a stop that just wasn't in the right place. Perhaps the piece called for a harmonic flute or a reed, and you had to sacrifice the "right" sound because of the limitations of the instrument.</p>

                          Mike, it's very similar to a theatre organ (and I do hint your sarcasm). The difference is that we're talking about an organ built with classical specifications and voicing, a difference in how the stops themselves are presented and arranged, and the behavior of the keyboards (and divisions as a whole). On any modern organ - theatre or classical - most divisions have a "home" keyboard. On the system that I'm suggesting, each stop is floating, and the only thing that links it to a division is which swell box (if any) it's enclosed in!</p>

                          *****</p>

                          I also had a new thought concerning unison couplers.</p>

                          Suppose you had couplers that activate and deactivate stops onto the appropriate keyboard. I'll use division names and keyboards just to clarify my point. Suppose you had the Great (II) 8' Trumpet coupled to the top manual (III), and had the "III---&gt;I" coupler activated. On a standard classical organ, the trumpet would NOT couple to the bottom keyboard (I). But in this setup, since every stop is floating, the trumpet would also be activated on the bottom keyboard.</p>

                          As a result, unison couplers would be entirely unnecessary, but useful if you were registering a piece by hand or were improvising.
                          </p>

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Floating Organ



                            [quote user="m&amp;m's"]Sounds to methat what you are describing has already been built, many times. It's called a theatre organ.[/quote]</P>


                            Speaking of floating theatre organs, talk to those fellows in Cedar Rapids if you want to know about that![:(]</P>


                            Michael</P>
                            Way too many organs to list, but I do have 5 Allens:
                            • MOS-2 Model 505-B / ADC-4300-DK / ADC-5400 / ADC-6000 (Symphony) / ADC-8000DKC
                            • Lowrey Heritage (DSO-1)
                            • 11 Pump Organs, 1 Pipe Organ & 7 Pianos

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Floating Organ

                              Guys these organs are already being built.

                              Comment

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