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  • Allen Organ Technical Discussion



    Anyone interested in discussion of features andproblems with late model RenaissanceOrgans?</P>


    There are some power supply reliability and cyphering issues that might be of interest. Any interest?</P>


    Neither the Allen Factory nor the user's group delves into technical issues other than speaker placement, etc so maybe some of you with knowledge can pipe in here!!</P>


    I am interested in discussion oftrem design, whichprovides AM and FM, theAllen composite level settable using the CC (Console Controller) or Dove(Dealer's Organ Voicing Editor). It is my understanding that the trem is added digitally to the untremmed samples in the same way as the trem 4 in previous series organs does. A tibia with trem is simply trem added to the audio. It is not, as some have suggested a sample of the pipe with trem on. </P>


    Regarding sampled trem, 2 problems result from sampling a pipe with trem on. First of all looping is extremely difficult as both the tone and the trem points have to match exactly at the looping point. Second, in playback, a pipe organ trem runs all the time when it is enabled, whereas a played sample always begins at the same point. Single notes sound great but multiple notes having all different trem phases since they are not played at the exact same time. A third complication is that there must be a sample for each note. If you have a bad sample and want to borrow from a close note and raise or lower it's pitch, the trem rate changes accordingly, ruining the result. I have a tibia with trem sampledand have seen the results.</P>


    Another factor is that a pipe with trem on experiences a variation in the harmonics as the trem cycles. Usually this is approximated with a low pass filter whose cutoff is modulated with the trem cycle: As the pressure goes up, the harmonics go up and the low pass filter cutoff goes up, approximating this function. I don't know how Allen does this if they do it at all. How do others do this?</P>


    Any experience using DOVE? I won't go into this unless there is interest. I understand some have made changes in the software to enable more advanced functions. Also there are many mysteries in it's use and documentation is practically zero and absolutely no factory support. Help!!!</P>


    Unfortunately, Allen wants all support to come from the local dealer. </P>


    Any ideas or suggestions? </P>

  • #2
    Re: Allen Organ Technical Discussion



    Al,</P>


    What are you wanting to do to the voicing? I don't have a lot of experience but have the DOVE software and occasionally tinker withthe voicing on an Allen. I know what you mean about the total lack of documentation and support. I just have to do it by trial and error and figure it out as I go along.</P>


    Understand what you mean about the trem. Allen's trems sound quite wonderful to me, but certainly they are done in audio, same technology used for decades. I haven't tried to modify this with DOVE. Not being much a theatre organ buff, I don't have a real ear for tremolo anyway.</P>


    I just recently bought Hauptwerk (got a used copy of version 2 with the dongle), but haven't tried it out. I understand that someorgans sampled for Hauptwerk use real trem-ed samples. Wonder if the problems you mention are obvious with that program. I haven't even installed it yet, but hope to sometime this summer so I can fool around with it for fun. Maybe we can discuss that whole issue sometime.</P>


    John</P>
    <P mce_keep="true"></P>
    John
    ----------
    *** Please post your questions about technical service or repair matters ON THE FORUM. Do not send your questions to me or another member by private message. Information shared is for the benefit of the entire organ community, but other folks will not be helped by information we exchange in private messages!

    https://www.facebook.com/pages/Birds...97551893588434

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Allen Organ Technical Discussion



      Hi, John</P>


      Here's the problem: The trems are at very high level, apparently after Walt Strony's voicing when the sostenudo was installed before I bought the organ. Neirher the console controller nor Dove have any effect although I can adjust the speed (LFO). I have done some voicing with my version of Dove but It appears there is some type of software switch which was not enabled by Walt's"professional" version of Dove. A lot of my playing is without trem and my pipe trem is used but I really should be able to use the Allen trems. I heard someone had accessed the Dove data and was able to utilize additional features but I have no idea what this requires.</P>


      If someone is using tremmed samples I really would like to know how they synchronize the trem phases. I just can't figure out how except maybe a separate channel for just the trem data. Any ideas?</P>


      Al</P>

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Allen Organ Technical Discussion



        Al,</P>


        What I have is a "beta" version of DOVE. Dealer gave it to me a few years ago. I don't remember seeing any trem adjustments, but wasn't looking for it either. Next time I use it I will poke around and see what else is there.</P>


        I suspect in Hauptwerk when using tremmed samples the trem phases are not synchronized. Every note of every stop just doing its own thing. That must be really wild! But some might like that. I know our Rodgers 890 has separate trem generators for each unit rank in each division, and the recommendation is to intentionally set the trems at different speeds so they won't sync up!</P>


        John</P>
        John
        ----------
        *** Please post your questions about technical service or repair matters ON THE FORUM. Do not send your questions to me or another member by private message. Information shared is for the benefit of the entire organ community, but other folks will not be helped by information we exchange in private messages!

        https://www.facebook.com/pages/Birds...97551893588434

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Allen Organ Technical Discussion

          [quote user="jbird604"]


          Al,</P>


          I suspect in Hauptwerk when using tremmed samples the trem phases are not synchronized. Every note of every stop just doing its own thing. That must be really wild! But some might like that. </P>


          John</P>


          [/quote]</P>


          In Hauptwerk the sample set creator can define which pipes and/or ranks are attached to each tremulant, and the tremulantphases are locked for all pipes on a given tremulant.</P>


          Rob</P>


          Rob</P>

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Allen Organ Technical Discussion

            Is it correct to say that the same trem is added to each note of a sample? Then we are adding trem to a plain untremmed sample. It's not like recording a pipe with the trem on. If the pipe is recorded with the trem on (I have a set) how do you synchronize the trem note for note. I have played the set I have and it sounds bad with some notes on the upswing and some on the downswing. Is there a way of phase locking to the low frequency trem signal in the presence of the pipe fundamental tone? With a rate of 6 orf 7 Hz, the settling time for the loop would be several seconds. Is there a better way? Maybe a trem timing signal is recorded on a separate channel?

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Allen Organ Technical Discussion



              I presume Arie is talking about a Theatre organ model. Which model is
              it? Did you get the master database for your instrument? Walt should
              have left it with the original owner, without it and without the right
              version of DOVE (ie at least as current as the version the data base
              was created on) you won't be able to do much, if anything, to the
              organ.
              </p>

              Forgive me if I am covering common knowledge, but the Theatre tremulant wave forms are sampled- not the tremmed pipe. It is actually possible to swap wave forms within DOVE. I've seen Walt do it for a particularly nasty diapason trem that had a motorboat effect with the original sample. In that case he swapped in the string tremulant wave form (which would be appropriate as most moderate theatre organs had diapason and main strings on the same wind system).</p>

              You can email Walt for the data base- he does keep them, they are only about 1 megabyte files.</p>

              Gene Stroble on the Allen list could probably help and Jim Gallops- a very accomplished tech (who even managed to create 4 voxes on to the 2 vox GW4 used in Jonas Nordwall's recording) could also help you with the trem issues for a theatre organ.</p>

              For the record I own an R311 and Galanti Preludium 1</p>

              Jeff</p>

              </p>

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Allen Organ Technical Discussion



                Hi, Jeff</P>


                What do you mean by "tremulant waveform"? A trem consists of an AM component, FM component, and sometimes SM (spectral modulation). These are individually adjustable as to level and the modulation frequency around 6.2Hz or so. It is my understanding that the "tremulant waveform" is really just a set or database of these modulation parameters. It is not a waveform per se although Allen uses that nomenclature, a catchy albeit incorrect name. Probably a sales input. If we truly have a tremulant waveform, that would be the modulating waveform. In that case we need the AM-FM-SM modulation ratios as well as the 6.2Hz waveform. How can I control those parameters? There must be a way and I would like to discover the secret. </P>


                I also have an R311 + Dove. In fact I have 7 ranks of pipe connected to the organ and generally like the overall sound.</P>


                The Allen Owners list is a non technicallist and nothing more. They are really nice people but any technical discussion results in silence. I have discussed this and other issues with Rudy (owner)both on and off list and we disagree as friends, He has a standing dinner invitation if he ventures out this way. My organ isn't quite like his Wanamaker but I'd like to hear him play anyway! As you know, Allen has no factory customer suport as all support must come from the dealer. The technicians out here are no more than box changers and those experts like Walt Strony are few, difficult to scheduleand expensive. As an EE, I am interested in the many technical aspects of the instrument and its design. I have a problem with the trems and want to understand the design so I can make it better. </P>


                Al</P>

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Allen Organ Technical Discussion



                  It's been awhile since I was in DOVE but there is an actual wave form and each trem engine is different. The patterns were taken from GW's studio instrument.</p>

                  When Walt made a change to the diapason trem he actually copied and imported the wave form, database,whatever from the string trem engine. </p>

                  I can still change speed and depth on them, but the parameters of the wave were set by a separate database for the trems.</p>

                  I suggest putting out a request on the Allen list- individual members Gene Stroble and Jim Gallops are there and if you ask, I'm sure they can give you more info.</p>

                  Rudy would probably not be much help as the theatre trems are handled differently in the Allen system than the classical. The classical does not actually use a waveform database for it's trems.</p>

                  Jeff</p>

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Allen Organ Technical Discussion



                    Thetrem waveform then is the LFO amplitude waveform - what you would see on a scope. Probably a non symmetrical waveform. </P>


                    This thenamplitude modulates the rank sample, frequency modulates the rank sample,spectrally modulates the rank sample (if this is used).</P>


                    The composite level is adjustable but not the individual levels. In my case they appear to be at maximum with no adjustment with Dove or CC.</P>

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Allen Organ Technical Discussion



                      Yes, I am interested! I have an Allen GW IV Renaissance, about 10 years old now, boughtalmost a year agoand had an MDS 317 before that for almost 10 years.Had a complete failure of the organ a couple of months ago. I replaced the power supply, a model A, with a newer model C. That didn't correct the problem, but found another problem in one of the tone boards. Got that fixed and everything seemed fine for a couple of weeks. Then the power supply failed again. An Allen Tech tried finding other possible causes with no immediate success, so replaced the power supply again! This corrected the problem. Shortly after that, I began to have a few cyphers on one manual. Placed a shop light in the back of the organ in a certain location, corrected the cyphers. They come and go, depending on the time of day. The shop light always corrects the problem. Now the search is on for a fix to that problem. Any suggestions would be a big help!</P>

                      Comment

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