Build a virtual organ versus buying a used console organ. Help please

[donnad]

Hi there. I’m new to this forum. I play the organ for church and would like to be able to practice at home and have been looking at used organs (like 25 years old, etc) and my price range is about $4000-$4500. My question is can I get the following and build a home organ ( using a laptop) for that same money instead? (Pedalboard, bench, two keyboards with appropriate stand that will also hold music book, two speakers, software, and an expression pedal and whatever other things like cables , etc that would be required). If I can do it for that price range and have a good basic setup then it seems to me that's the way to go because everything would be new..... I would be putting this in my home office which is the size of a 'normal' bedroom Advice on this would be greatly appreciated. Thank you.

[John Kinkennon]

The basic answer is yes. Your budget is realistic providing you can find an acceptable pedal solution or wire up existing pedals with new contacts. The rock bottom approach is to find an older console -- I've seldom had to pay for a 20 to 30 year old Allen or Rodgers console. That gets you a pedalboard that might need new felt strips but that will work with inexpensive encoders like a Teensy 3.6 board. If rewiring the manuals is out of the question then substitute modern MIDI keyboards, ideally something that can be stripped out of the plastic enclosure though that's an option that would require a bit of woodworking. In any case you will have a solid AGO spec console with pedals and bench. Stops can be controlled via an ordinary monitor and mouse or from a touchscreen.

I've built a console with a complete MIDI system for well under $1000 when the console was free. You will want a small ASIO capable external audio interface and perhaps a pair of studio monitors and sub unless you already own excellent audio hardware. If you need to use a new computer that could run $1000 minimum. Hauptwerk software and a nice sample set will run $500 to $1000. Other software if free. The more you investigate the options the better the virtual organ approach will look.

EDIT: The need to fit the instrument into a bedroom would likely require using the two keyboards on a modern stand. Don't skimp on the cost of the stand in my opinion. Get something really solid.

[rjsilva]

A question worth asking is why you are considering a VPO (hauptwerk, grandorgue, or other)?

I’d recommend you go that route if you have a specific reason that you’ve investigated and tested and know it’s what you want.

There might be reasons that would steer you away from a VPO. For instance, I know that a good sample set has much higher resolution and quality samples than my organ and should sound better than mine. But I generally prefer the native sound of my organ in my room with the speakers I now use vs. a VPO. It’s more pleasing. For me it largely has to do with the fact that I prefer a closer-up sound (less reverb mix) than most sample sets provide.

With your budget and some patience you could probably find a decent sounding organ with the benefit of plug and play. I’ve seen Allen MDS series organs in my area for less than your budget. I’m not suggesting you shouldn’t use a VPO but rather encouraging you to think through the benefits if you haven’t already.

[donnad]

I guess so far my thoughts have been that with going the virtual route, I would have new components, whereas for my budget I would be looking at an organ that is likely around 25 yrs old. I don’t know what parts are likely to start failing and need repair or replacement..... my impression from what I’ve been reading is that organ sound software sounds very very good......but I suppose that would depend largely upon the speakers that you play it through. I guess I’m a little fearful of buying an organ of about 25 yrs old for about $4000 and then getting down the road a couple of years or so and having to spend a couple grand to fix it. Am I worrying too much about that ? What is the life expectancy so to speak of a 25 yr old Rodgers organ? Do many people prefer the sound from a console organ instead of from organ software?

[Leisesturm]

I wouldn't worry too much about a 25 year old organ being unreliable. 50 y.o. analog is another thing entirely. But a couple of years ago I played for a wedding on a Baldwin in the Old College Hall at Pacific University in Forest Grove, OR. I found the build date plate on the back of the console. 1931. That is not a typo. OTOH my much newer Eminent has not held up nearly as well and must be gutted and VPO'd, although my plans for it when I bought it was to use it much like RSilva recommends. 1989 was the build date for that instrument. A 25 y.o. instrument from Allen or Rodgers will have a lot of support from the tech community. Almost no one builds 2M VPO's. Certainly not for $4K with all new components. Aim higher and you can build something with some resale value. a 3M will have much better value. IMO.

[John Kinkennon]

The VPO approach will provide a sound quality that cannot be approached by any but the newest and most expensive commercial electronic organs. That is an overriding consideration for many of us. In terms of reliability I'd much rather have 25 to 30 year old Rodgers manuals with the phosphor-bronze whisker contacts than any of the newer bubble contact keyboards. I've seen these newer keyboards need replacement parts after a year of six hour a day practice. That said, I use some wonderful Roland keys at the moment -- and I play the occasional half hour per day. The key to staying on a budget is to avoid dealers (sorry) and get a solid console for a few hundred dollars or for no cost except the transport (yeah, I use my own trailer). Another key to controlling costs is to either connect encoders to the existing keys or to replace the keyboards entirely as mentioned previously. Discard all the electronic circuits -- either disconnect them or remove them entirely. Those are the parts that will fail in any case. Just reuse pedalboards, toe studs, pistons, possibly the keyboards. Getting complete control over drawknobs or tabs/rockers typically requires more expense -- use a touchscreen if that is a difficult task to convert.

Or pick up something like a recent vintage two manual & pedals Yamaha Electone or equivalent that has MIDI already installed. Consoles like this will fit through any door as well.

[John Kinkennon]

Allow me to add a photo that I may have posted previously. This is my current VPO with about $2500 invested in the console, $2000 in the computer, $2000 in audio equipment, and $1500 in Hauptwerk and a couple of excellent sample sets. So we have roughly $8000 total for a setup that would be hard to beat. The console was more than what I usually spend and a pair of the studio monitors shown would run just $600 including a small audio interface. So I'm comfortable saying that it's not necessary to spend a fortune.

[Moller Artiste]

Allow me to add a photo that I may have posted previously. This is my current VPO with about $2500 invested in the console, $2000 in the computer, $2000 in audio equipment, and $1500 in Hauptwerk and a couple of excellent sample sets. So we have roughly $8000 total for a setup that would be hard to beat. The console was more than what I usually spend and a pair of the studio monitors shown would run just $600 including a small audio interface. So I'm comfortable saying that it's not necessary to spend a fortune.

John, I agree. I have a 3M Hauptwerk VPO and I'm convinced that was the correct way to go. Even though it's unlikely I will play anything but the E.M. Skinner sampleset, it's nice to know I always have the option for something else. Allen

[jbird604]

These pics and all the discussion make me so jealous! Even though I was an early adopter of the VPO concept (played around with J-Organ back in the early 2000's and had a small system MIDI'd to the organ at church), I never seemed to have the time, the free cash, the space to set up a really cool system at home. Because of my connections with various organ dealers I sometimes have access to the trade-ins they get, and as a tech with a large service area I get frequent opportunities to pick up good used organs for free or very little money. So it's been much easier for me to pick up decent ready-to-play hardware organs, and have something of a revolving door at my house -- one organ comes in and another one goes out.

But if things were different -- if I had a dedicated organ room separate from the living room, and plenty of time and money to put into it -- I'd have built myself by now a very flexible VPO like some of you guys have done so successfully. As much as I enjoy the hardware organ that I've wound up with at home (Allen R-230), I am well aware of the vast difference between it and a good VPO, and I get goosebumps when I hear the on-line demos.

So it depends to a large degree on all those factors. IF you have a space in which you can put together a VPO without disrupting life in general in your home, IF you have time to assemble and tinker, IF you are physically able to do all these things ... then a VPO is a good plan. If you are a no-go on any of these, you might be better off to consider looking diligently for a fairly late-model digital organ, especially given the fact that they are becoming so numerous on the market, ebay, craigslist, etc.

I may have waited too late to get involved, as in the past couple years I've definitely seen the effects of aging on my body -- I've needed both shoulder and knee surgery and have not recovered full motion. I have much less flexibility and stamina than I used to have, and poor eyesight for working on small circuit boards and such. So I'd probably need a lot of help just to set up a VPO nowadays. Twenty years ago I could've done it myself without any trouble. So there's one argument in favor of jumping right in while you are still able!

[John Kinkennon]

John, I can sure relate to the aging thing. I have less energy and less interest in going out to work in the garage every year that passes. I need a large lighted magnifying lamp that I had never used before. I can get down on the floor or a small stool to do some soldering, but the joint pain and strength to get back up is failing me. I injured a shoulder over one year ago moving an organ console and it acts up as well. Ha, ha! Just when we find some time to do the enjoyable hobbies!!

[jbird604]

Yep. It's totally unfair! The gods are making fools of us!

[rjsilva]

One thing donnad could possibly do is purchase a console that works and sounds decent as is but that also has MIDI capability and then perhaps at some point in the future he could try out a VPO and see if it suits him. For my needs and tastes the currently available VPO’s are not worth it (obviously it is for other people though).

Once Modartt produces their commercial Organteq I do plan on using that. The flexibility I expect it will provide makes the potential really appealing. I actually have aspirations to adjust stops to sound similar to the Walker at my church so that I can work out registrations
from home and don’t have to come in early Sunday mornings! (I’m not a morning person.)

[jbird604]

There are as many ways of doing the home VPO thing as there are home organists!

(1) Getting a good hardware organ that is fully MIDI'ed is a viable approach, and gives a baseline to which one can compare progress being made in the VPO. Other methods I see out there include (2) starting from scratch by purchasing keyboard stacks, tables, pedalboards, computers, and other components. (3) getting a fine old pipe or electronic console and gutting it, installing new MIDI encoders on all the keys and controls, connecting it all to a separate computer and audio setup. (4) buying a complete self-contained VPO system consisting of a purpose-built console with all the accessories with a computer system already enclosed, with stops controlled either by mechanical tabs/knobs or by touch screens, with or without a dedicated audio system.

And of course, once you have the physical system, you can choose from a variety of software -- Hauptwerk, j-Organ, Grand Orgue, Organteq (in development), and I'm sure there are others less well known. On top of all that, Johannus now sells the "Live!" models with their own proprietary VPO software and sample sets built into a ready-to-play console.

Various companies can sell you the different components, or you can order a turn-key job from several different places. Sure is an exciting world out there for those brave enough to explore it!

[donnad]

Wow!! John and Molller your pictures are soooo great. Your setups look sooooo amazing!!! Can I come over and play? LOL. From reading your posts it seems that there are so many ways one can go about this.......so maybe a good avenue for me might be to buy a decent used organ (which in my case means within my above stated budget for now)(I’ve seen a Rodgers 595 or two recently that seem to be in good shape for example) , and then down the road when things start to fail on it , keep all the good stuff and I could morph over into a VPO with it........ does that sound reasonable?

[Admin]

1931 Baldwin?

I wouldn't worry too much about a 25 year old organ being unreliable. 50 y.o. analog is another thing entirely. But a couple of years ago I played for a wedding on a Baldwin in the Old College Hall at Pacific University in Forest Grove, OR. I found the build date plate on the back of the console. 1931. That is not a typo.

Are you sure of that date? As far as I can determine, Baldwin did not start experimenting with building organs until 1935 and most sources cite 1946 as the date Baldwin entered the commercial organ market. Would love to see a picture of that build plate!