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Optimal VPO SW/sound option for my next step

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  • ziggi55
    replied
    All, to complete this thread for consistency and to benefit others, let me report that after making some changes, I am now much happier playing GO, mostly the Burea Church machine, with good results. Probably the most crucial change was to switch the sound engine interpolation from "Linear" to "Polyphase". That eliminated clicks and the rustling sound also on sampling rates higher than 44.1k (it had been first eliminated by reducing sampling to 44.1k). I also reduced the "Samples Per Buffer" value down to 128, while "compressing" the cache. I was then able to go back to the 24-bit resolution with 48k sampling rate (I think I can go back to 96k without awakening the rustling sound). Furthermore, probably due to "polyphase", I now hear the GO sound less harsh and distorted, although there is still a big difference (to me) when comparing it to HW.

    Thanks to all who contributed to this issue here and, of course, Lars Palo.
    Zdenek

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  • ziggi55
    replied
    Originally posted by tbeck View Post
    I am playing the Piotr Grabowski Giubiasco sample set, and a composite set I created from the Grabowski Friesach sample set, the Sonus Paradisi Rotterdam demo and the Goerlitz demo. It's a tad eclectic, but I find it good for a wide range of repertoire. When I just want to play Bach, I use the Giubiasco (even though I think Bach works well on my composite as well.)
    ........Once you learn how to parse the ODF, it isn't too difficult to create composites or modify existing sample sets.
    Thanks for all the tips. A good spot for me to start my research.
    Z

    - - - Updated - - -

    Originally posted by tbeck View Post
    As far as the sound is concerned, I'm fine with it. Perhaps I have a less refined ear than you.
    I doubt that. I am still working with the hypothesis that the sampling, bit resolution, and the buffer sizes are subject to more testing. As Lars suggested, default settings don't work well with just any sample set in GO.

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  • tbeck
    replied
    I am playing the Piotr Grabowski Giubiasco sample set, and a composite set I created from the Grabowski Friesach sample set, the Sonus Paradisi Rotterdam demo and the Goerlitz demo. It's a tad eclectic, but I find it good for a wide range of repertoire. When I just want to play Bach, I use the Giubiasco (even though I think Bach works well on my composite as well.)

    The only HW sample set I tried was the free one that comes with the free version of HW. I don't like that instrument at all. I'm enjoying GO very much. Once you learn how to parse the ODF, it isn't too difficult to create composites or modify existing sample sets. As far as the sound is concerned, I'm fine with it. Perhaps I have a less refined ear than you.

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  • ziggi55
    replied
    Originally posted by tbeck View Post
    Which sample sets are you using? I use GO with sample sets using the same samples as Hauptwerk and they sound great to me. Have you listened to any recordings of GO and HW sample sets? They sound pretty similar to me.
    I am currently using Burea the most, but I tried Pitea, Cracow, and the Default set. Yes, I listened to the GO youTube videos and they sound OK. But in my system, I hear intermodulation. Not with HW. I will revisit everything shortly, to play with the settings. Right now I am finishing the 3rd manual's threshold bar with momentary combination switches. It is taking me 5x the time that I planned. Oh, well. Labor of love.

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  • tbeck
    replied
    Originally posted by ziggi55 View Post
    I am still getting used to the relative "harshness" of the GO sound - see my update above. But I understand that getting familiar with this great product is a process, and I am enjoying all this learning.
    Zdenek
    Which sample sets are you using? I use GO with sample sets using the same samples as Hauptwerk and they sound great to me. Have you listened to any recordings of GO and HW sample sets? They sound pretty similar to me.

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  • samibe
    replied
    It's good to hear that it's working better.

    I find that it takes me a while to get used to new organs.

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  • ziggi55
    replied
    I am happy to report that Lars resolved the issue by simply suggesting to reduce the sampling rate from 96k to 44100. The noise disappeared completely. However, playing a one-tone quick staccato now, the NOTE-ON event sometimes produces a click or a pop. This does not happen on 69k. I decided to live with this, and as Lars suggested, I will later try different settings, e.g. in the "samples per buffer" value and possibly other settings.

    I am still getting used to the relative "harshness" of the GO sound - see my update above. But I understand that getting familiar with this great product is a process, and I am enjoying all this learning.
    Zdenek

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  • ziggi55
    replied
    While I am waiting for a response from the GO forum, I'd like to throw out this, no doubt rather loaded, question and observation: In the past few months, I got a chance to compare the sounds of Hauptwerk and GrandOrgue on different types of samples and also types of music. My impression, as a complete novice mind you, is that GO's sound is "harsher", "pricklier", and with some level of (call it "intermodulation") distortion. IOW, I seem to hear various artifacts, seemingly stemming from frequency interference. It is even more apparent when one pipe (sometimes in the same rank) is a bit louder than another one. OTOH, HW's sound is rather distortion-free, smoother and generally more "balanced" and pleasant.

    I definitely do not want to disparage the tremendous efforts of the GO designers - still a magnificent and generous feat by them. I am more like fishing here for an opinion. And yes, I realize that while GO is free, "you get what you paid for". So, *I* may be the one doing something wrong. Currently, though, I have the sampling rate and bit resolution set at their highest levels (96000, 24).

    Anyone has a similar observation? (Of course, for the purpose of this note, it has nothing to do with my "noise problem".)
    Opinions? Zdenek

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  • ziggi55
    replied
    Originally posted by Admin View Post
    What operating system and version are you using? What sound card/device are you using?
    I run Win 7 (latest updates), the sound is on NVIDIA High Definition Audio, but I just noticed the driver is 5 years old. I will try to update it.

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  • j reimer
    replied
    Originally posted by ziggi55 View Post
    Do you know if the GO designers are still responding to their chat group? I may try to ask these questions there.Z
    They certainly are. At https://sourceforge.net/p/ourorgan/discussion/

    John Reimer

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  • Admin
    replied
    What operating system and version are you using? What sound card/device are you using?

    Leave a comment:


  • ziggi55
    replied
    Originally posted by Admin View Post
    This does not sound like a buffer or processing problem to me. As I said previously, that type of problem would not be confined exclusively to one channel. Buffer problems are the result of the CPU not processing data fast enough to keep the sample buffers full. This can occur due to insufficient processing power and is usually associated with CPU and disk intensive background tasks, such as virus scans and file indexing, that steal processing time interfering with keeping the buffers full. When the buffer underflows, or becomes empty, the audio stream is interrupted, causing a glitch, and perhaps a pop or tick. But there's no reason to expect that if this was occurring it would only affect the left channel buffer.

    Buffer problems are more likely to occur when there are high signal processing demands, such as when large amounts of polyphony are required. Polyphony can be increased by increasing buffer sizes, but the tradeoff is that larger buffers mean greater latency. The example is a single note melody played on single rank. Polyphony requirements, and hence processing requirements, couldn't be less and a multicore processor running at 3GHz should have no problem handling this. You can always monitor CPU and disk usage while the problem is occurring, but I'm sure you'll find that they are not being heavily taxed by a single note melody.

    I think this an audio problem. It may be due to a bad sound card or maybe electrical noise from the computer circuitry is bleeding into the audio. Inaudible high frequency oscillations in the audio path often manifest themselves as light ticks and frying.
    I agree on all points, but this is happening exclusively with GO, and it is NOT present in Hauptwerk or any other sound app (youTube, iTunes, etc.) running on the PC. Do you know if the GO designers are still responding to their chat group? I may try to ask these questions there.
    Z

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  • Admin
    replied
    This does not sound like a buffer or processing problem to me. As I said previously, that type of problem would not be confined exclusively to one channel. Buffer problems are the result of the CPU not processing data fast enough to keep the sample buffers full. This can occur due to insufficient processing power and is usually associated with CPU and disk intensive background tasks, such as virus scans and file indexing, that steal processing time interfering with keeping the buffers full. When the buffer underflows, or becomes empty, the audio stream is interrupted, causing a glitch, and perhaps a pop or tick. But there's no reason to expect that if this was occurring it would only affect the left channel buffer.

    Buffer problems are more likely to occur when there are high signal processing demands, such as when large amounts of polyphony are required. Polyphony can be increased by increasing buffer sizes, but the tradeoff is that larger buffers mean greater latency. The example is a single note melody played on single rank. Polyphony requirements, and hence processing requirements, couldn't be less and a multicore processor running at 3GHz should have no problem handling this. You can always monitor CPU and disk usage while the problem is occurring, but I'm sure you'll find that they are not being heavily taxed by a single note melody.

    I think this an audio problem. It may be due to a bad sound card or maybe electrical noise from the computer circuitry is bleeding into the audio. Inaudible high frequency oscillations in the audio path often manifest themselves as light ticks and frying.

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  • ziggi55
    replied
    I got a 16GB, 3+GHz machine, and I applied several of Sam's (samibe) suggestions from his pamphlet. (See previously in this thread). If you want to see a particular setting, please be specific. The GO sometimes runs on an empty (Win 7) system, and the noise is unchanged.
    Z

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  • Leisesturm
    replied
    Originally posted by ziggi55 View Post
    I finally got around to do a quick recording. Note that there is no noise before the phrase is played, then during the phrase, you can see the "kindling burning" noise in the L channel, and then after the music, no noise.
    Z
    http://longfinal.com/rnd48084762/OrganTest.wma
    I could be wrong, because I've never actually had hands on with VPO tech but it 'sounds' to me like what people experience when the BUFFERS and other parameters of their audio processing software are not optimal for the amount of RAM they have or their processor resources or what have you. What are you working with as far as system resources?

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