Composite Sample Set

[tbeck]

I've been working on a composite sample set for GrandOrgue which consists of several demo and/or free sample sets created for Hauptwerk (and also one created for both HW and GO).

I would like some thoughts as to whether this sample set works as a cohesive instrument. I'm not sure if there is enough variety in registration to give advice about balance between ranks or divisions, but if any of you have any specific ideas, I'd love to hear them. The constituent samples are obviously from different acoustic spaces, but they are all fairly "wet."

I'll issue the standard caveat: amateur, self-taught organist (from piano), etc. I will make one specific apology about the cringe-worthy pedal mistake in the middle verse. I plopped a cloven hoof down on the wrong pedal and let it lie it there for three agonizing beats.

Here's the link:

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1LU...jneSqJ4g8efx-c

[m&m's]

Obviously, with so limited a sample, it is hard to say anything about tonal variety, mix of stops and sounds, etc., but for hymn playing I think you have a very good sound. I am really curious to know the details-what demo sets you used, your stoplist, etc.

And don't apologize for being a self taught organist. i am basically self taught, although conservatory trained in music education, yet am considered to be a pretty good organist by the churches that I have had the privilege of serving. And I have known some organists who can really play the classical repertoire, yet wouldn't be worth two cents on a church organ bench.

[Horseshoe_or]

Impressive sound!

[jbird604]

Tom, when I listen to this, I feel like I'm sitting in a vast English cathedral listening to one of Britain's finest organs that is in perfect condition and meticulously in tune! It's quite wonderful, my friend. I suppose that listening critically to individual stops one might be able to tell that they come from different acoustic environments, but the ensemble I hear in your registration is flawless.

If I were to critique anything at all, I would say that the manual double I hear in the first verse is louder than I generally set such a stop. But that is purely a matter of personal opinion. And since I'm more accustomed to digital organs than to real pipes, I am always careful to get the manual double soft enough not to cause distortion. I don't hear any distortion in this sound, so you have nothing to worry about there.

As to that rogue pedal note in verse 2 ... I just thought you were improvising! Goodness knows I do worse things than that almost every Sunday in front of God and everybody! Super nice playing.

[voet]

Thank you for sharing this, Tbeck. I agree with John, it does have a very English sound. It would be interesting to see an annotated stop list for your composite sample set that gives the organ of origin for each stop.

Regarding the "pedal mistake" I am reminded of a comment that Gerre Hancock once made in a masterclass on improvisation that he gave at Westminster Choir College. He said something like, "Remember, a wrong note is only a step away from the right note."

[tbeck]

Thanks, everyone for the comments. I agree with M&M that there aren't enough combinations here to really get a more specific idea about the overall tonal scheme. And I agree with John about the double in the first verse. For the overall arc, its probably unnecessary.

In fact, I was kind of hoping for an English cathedral sound.


None of the sources are English, however. The samples come from three sources: from Sonus Paradisi, the Rotterdam (main organ) demo and the Goerlitz demo; and from Piotr Grabowski, the Friesach sample set. One of my concerns was the differing lengths of the reverb times, but I think it works pretty well. The other thing I am fussing with is the balance of the different ranks and divisions. I don't want the mixtures to scream, but I definitely want them to "crown" the plenum.

Besides the pedal atrocity, I wish I had thrown on the pedal 32' Posaune in the last phrase, but the pistons on my console don't send MIDI messages, so I'm using the top note of the swell keyboard to activate the "Next" control of the combination sequencer. With the amount of practice time I gave myself for this, I couldn't re-position my hands quickly enough after hitting the top note of the keyboard.

I'll work on posting the disposition soon.

[jbird604]

It's so hard to get mixtures "just right" in any organ. I'll work and work on the organ at church, thinking I have the mixtures seamlessly blended into the ensemble, then the next time I start to play they stick out like a sore thumb.

Some people go for "the quirkier the better" and I know a fine digital organ voicer who does a lot of the large Rodgers organs around here. He always tunes the mixtures quite sharp to the rest of the stops and they are unmistakable when they come in. Don't even have to be loud! I'm not sure that is always the best approach though ;-)

[m&m's]

Some people go for "the quirkier the better" and I know a fine digital organ voicer who does a lot of the large Rodgers organs around here. He always tunes the mixtures quite sharp to the rest of the stops and they are unmistakable when they come in. Don't even have to be loud! I'm not sure that is always the best approach though ;-)

Is he by any chance a (former) piano tuner? That's the way you tune a piano, to sharpen the top end like that. But I never heard of anyone tuning an organ that way.

[jbird604]

Good guess, but I don't think so. He's a real artist with the voicing and this is just one of the tricks he employs to make his voicing jobs sound more "authentic" I suppose. The logic being that "pipe organs are always out of tune a little bit." And his mixtures are certainly not "sour" just obviously distinct. It lets you know right away that this is no unit organ or old-fashioned lock-step digital system!

[tbeck]

Here's the stop list for the composite organ. The sources sample sets are: Piotr Graboswki, Friesach (F), Sonus Paradisi Rotterdam (R) and Goerlitz (G).

As you can see from the nomenclature, it is a bit of an eclectic mess. I wasn't sure what to do about the division names, so I just switched them to English. The choir mixture is from Grabosowki's Dluga Koscielna sample set. The cornet is derived from the choir. My console only has two manuals, so the Choir and Solo are both floating manuals. I added some switches to the console that easily allow those floating manuals to be either coupled to the two manuals, or be played exclusively on the manuals. The tremulants are synthetic, except for the Kromhoorn and Englisch Horn, which use sampled tremulants.

[jbird604]

Quite an interesting disposition, even if the stops are from varied sources. You certainly have the full range of tone colors covered. I do have to wonder about the use of an "Octaaf" sample apparently for 8', 4', and 2' members of the great principal chorus. Was this a unit rank in the original organ? Or are they all three different but just named the same? I have to assume that this idea works out well, judging by the lovely sounds I hear on your recording. It's just a bit unusual to see that.

[tbeck]

John, the names are confusing, but each is a separate register. They are all from the "Hoofdwerk" division of the Magnussen organ in Laurenskerk, Rotterdam. This is a straight, non-unified instrument, except for the borrowings, which are indicated.

[voet]

Thank you so much for sharing this, Tbeck. It is remarkable how English the sound is on your recording considering the origin of these stops.

[jbird604]

I guess I thought it sounded English because England is the only country where I've heard the cathedral organs, and these being wet samples, they sound like they're playing in a cathedral. That's how limited my experience is with European organ sound!

[tbeck]

Perhaps I should just think of it as a "generic" cathedral sample set. My experience is also not sufficient. However, I wanted to play a verse with a big solo reed playing the melody in the tenor and I wanted it to sound like a big English tuba, but I couldn't really make it work. If I played some of the solo reeds, I think it would be more obvious this wasn't an English organ. But, I also think the ensemble kind of works.