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  • #16
    Please, Doddy, you are spreading confusion. ASIO4ALL is for Windows WDM audio, not for Apple core audio. This is a technical fact. Please accept the good advice that we are offering or at least wait for experienced users to weigh in over on the HW forum. The reply you received was not from the Hauptwerk organization but from another user who assumed from your post that Cristian was using a Mac.
    http://www.kinkennon.com

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    • #17
      Originally posted by John Kinkennon View Post
      It is never a fool's errand to install an external audio interface, typically USB, for a Hauptwerk installation when using a PC instead of a Mac. That's a basic requirement whether or not it solves all the user's issues. In ten years of Hauptwerk use and active participation on the HW forum I have yet to stumble onto a successful installation that utilized native Windows PC audio. So my advice is based on experience with HW, AV, and a career doing electronics and UNIX support. Start with the appropriate equipment or Hauptwerk will become an extremely frustrating experience.
      I understand that an audio interfance is necessary for Hauptwerk, but why does the recording i did sound much better than when i play in realtime? I used the same onboard card that i used for playing in real time for the recording.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Cristian Jorge Amadeo Kus View Post
        I understand that an audio interfance is necessary for Hauptwerk, but why does the recording i did sound much better than when i play in realtime? I used the same onboard card that i used for playing in real time for the recording.
        I should start by saying that I often test consoles I'm working on in the garage using the free version of Hauptwerk on a laptop i7 PC. Sometimes it works well enough and other times not so well. I eventually purchased a small interface, the Presonus AudioBox iTwo to get consistently good audio.

        I assume that when recording the latency is relaxed a bit though I cannot be sure of your setup. Is the recording computer not running Hauptwerk at the time? If you were playing Hauptwerk and recording the results I wouldn't expect any improvement in audio quality.

        To get any further with troubleshooting what is happening it is important to start with some critical information. What is the computer make and model? What operating system is running and does it have the latest updates installed? Is there an antivirus program running? Which one? Do you have an internet connection in use? WiFi? Bluetooth? Are your keyboard and mouse wireless.

        How much memory is installed and how large is the sample set you are loading? Which version of Hauptwerk? Are you running Hauptwerk as a VST or AU plugin? If so what is the host program? We would assume that you are not trying to run WINE or some other emulation software which wouldn't have a chance of working well.

        So I have more questions than answers and previously we have discussed just generalities like "good luck with Windows audio" which isn't a complete answer by any means. Tell us as much as possible about your computer and the software it is running and perhaps some red flags will show up. If you want to contact me privately at john@kinkennon.com we could work through some of this and then post what we find or don't find right here. Or I'm happy to continue here.

        By the way it's my understanding that you tried ASIO4ALL. I'd be interested in knowing if it helped or not -- also whether GrandeOrgue was easier to run which is a definite possibility.

        EDIT: Since the recording sounded better is it possible that the difference is as simple as the audio levels? It would be nice if this were as simple as lowering the audio level in Hauptwerk and compensating by increasing the volume on any external amplifier or by using an external headset amplifier if you use headphones or earbuds. I've ignored this possibility as it is so basic and I don't want to be insulting. So the final question might be whether you are experience distorted (overdriven) sound or are getting crackles, pops, or stuttering audio.
        http://www.kinkennon.com

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        • #19
          Originally posted by John Kinkennon View Post
          By the way it's my understanding that you tried ASIO4ALL. I'd be interested in knowing if it helped or not -- also whether GrandeOrgue was easier to run which is a definite possibility.
          Please note, that the GO ASIO support is dead. Don't search for ASIO - use the builtin Windows APIs WDM/KS or WASAPI instead.

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          • #20
            Hmmm. Since we cannot hear what the o.p. hears when they play in realtime there is going to be a real problem advising them much beyond what has already been said. Their hardware certainly seems up to the task, so the issue MUST be one of configuration OR perception. Personally I could only hear the complete lack of any reverberation!!! For the love of all that is Good and Holy please get some. One reason the recordings on Contrebombarde and YouTube sound so good is because they ALL have varying levels of reverb present, from considerable to outrageous. At least all the ones I have heard do. I see that John K. has come to much the same conclusion in his EDIT: some mismatch of audio levels in the playback of realtime vs direct to hard disk recordings introduces distortion. I'm an old PC Technician and ace troubleshooter. It is necessary to be insulting in our line of work. And Occam's Razor must always be kept in mind. It flies in the face of Occam's Razor to bring extraneous hardware like Focusrite Scarlett's (nice though they be) into focus (swidt?) for a basic setup like the o.p.'s.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Cristian Jorge Amadeo Kus View Post
              Hi,
              I recently got my midi pedalboard, assembled it, got everything running, and i found that the sound was pretty terrible using my onboard audio card. I was wondering if getting a audio interface would help with the issue, i would like at least to sound like those Hauptwerk videos on youtube. I'm on a budget so i was considering getting this: BEHRINGER U-PHORIA UMC202HD
              Any advice?
              thanks
              I thought it might help to go back to the original post and see that Cristian gave every indication that he is running Hauptwerk. That is why we are discussing ASIO audio and interfaces. If someone, contrary to all our best advice, has successfully gotten low latency audio without an external interface on a PC running HW then please tell us about your experience. Meanwhile speculation about the subject is a waste of time. Hauptwerk is a resource intensive program and really does require ASIO audio on a PC. A cursory search of the Hauptwerk forum would be a good start for anyone curious to learn more. This forum could be an excellent resource for VPO builders as it is vendor agnostic. Let's all deal in facts and experience which can be easily tested and duplicated by others. Again, if someone has a successful low latency installation using Hauptwerk on a PC then we would all benefit from knowing that.
              http://www.kinkennon.com

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              • #22
                Re: latency. Somewhat a rhetorical question but, what exactly is 'low latency'? Where (in milliseconds) does, in the opinion of most, where (when) does latency become a problem? I ask because it is my suspicion (feeling) that an overall fear and loathing of any VPO latency whatsoever pushes a number of us to go to unreasonable lengths to totally eradicate it. Ironic since the Holy Grail that we seek to achieve is the Pipe Organ in all its Glory. An innate latency of as much as 25ms is rather ordinary for some chest designs. That's mechanical latency. The acoustic latency of some notable installations can be a full second. That's 1000 ms!!! And such instruments are very playable. I used to play one regularly. St. Phillips Episcopal Church, NYC. G. Donald Harrison A-S. Console at the Chancel, pipework in the rear balcony. OMG the delay (latency). Staying in time with the choir as they processed was simply impossible. You literally have to shut off your ears and play like an automaton to an internal count and expect that everyone else will sync up to your playing ... or not. But when I was alone with the instrument practicing I did not notice the delay (latency) at all. It really was a non-issue. Just saying.

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                • Admin
                  Admin commented
                  Editing a comment
                  Good point. I don't know if there's a specific number that qualifies as low-latency, but anything under 10 mS is not perceptible with human ears.

                  When I was a student, my lessons were on an organ in large, stone, cathedral, but I practiced at home in a 10 x 10 room on a Hammond. Talk about a difference in latency. But yes, you adapt and it becomes second nature, just like moving from the flat pedal board of the Hammond to the AGO pedal board of the pipe organ.

                  So, as long you're in a small space, electrical latency is largely a matter of comfort, but if your instrument is in a large space, you're now dealing with the sum of electrical and acoustical latencies which might be problematical.

              • #23
                Originally posted by John Kinkennon View Post

                I thought it might help to go back to the original post and see that Cristian gave every indication that he is running Hauptwerk. That is why we are discussing ASIO audio and interfaces. If someone, contrary to all our best advice, has successfully gotten low latency audio without an external interface on a PC running HW then please tell us about your experience. Meanwhile speculation about the subject is a waste of time. Hauptwerk is a resource intensive program and really does require ASIO audio on a PC. A cursory search of the Hauptwerk forum would be a good start for anyone curious to learn more. This forum could be an excellent resource for VPO builders as it is vendor agnostic. Let's all deal in facts and experience which can be easily tested and duplicated by others. Again, if someone has a successful low latency installation using Hauptwerk on a PC then we would all benefit from knowing that.
                I'm taking up your challenge to tell about my experience running HW on a PC and getting low latency without an external interface. My winter PC for HW is an HP Envy laptop with an i7-6700HQ cpu running Windows 10 Home. Using ASIO4ALL and no external audio interface Hauptwerk reports a latency of 10.1 to 10.3 mS. I agree with the Admin that latency under 10 mS is not perceptible to human ears (or fingers). As long as SuperFetch is disabled I don't experience any audio glitches either and the sound is fine using a beyerdynamic DT 770 headphone. I do get lower latencies (around 6 mS) on my older and slower home-built summer PC which has an E-MU pci audio interface but I can't hear or feel the difference between the two. I doubt if anyone else could either.

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                • #24
                  So ... not to beat the horse to death here but ... we are still talking about latency as if its a bad thing that needs to be at least minimized below human perception. It's fine that we agree that <10ms latency is undetectable. What I'd like to do is go much further and accept that a latency of ... 25ms is more realistic. It's what could possibly be perceived in a real world playing situation. Would an organist refuse to play the A-S at the Cathedral of St. John the Divine because of its high latency? Why it matters: ultra low latency (IMO 10ms is ultra low latency) requires hardware and software resources that could be better served optimizing sound quality and other aspects of realism (reverb?). I'm putting it out there that even 50ms ... 100ms latency could be acceptable but for the entrenched culture of rejection of any amount of perceptible latency as a defect. Latency matters when one needs to monitor the recording of their own playing in real time. For pure performance or playback monitoring of a finished performance even an unreasonable amount of latency should not be problematic. If it allows consumer level hardware to perform beyond its potential to serve up ultra-clean audio without audible artifacts isn't that worth it?

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                  • #25
                    I agree with Leisesturm that we chase latency past what is necessary at times. It's also confusing that latency is sometimes expressed for one direction only and at other times as a roundtrip calculation. Reaper, for example, shows what most of us would call a 10/11ms latency as 20/22ms because they are more concerned about roundtrip as it relates to recording and dubbing in new audio. Probably 25ms is a good number (one way) as suggested.

                    We also have a lot of HW users who would not stand for the real world latency of some cathedral organs sampled for HW and demand the kind of instant response they are familiar with. This is a case where I would much prefer low latency, but the purist would have reason to want a more realistic latency. I suspect that such a sample set wouldn't find many buyers though as perhaps this is a case where duplicating the very real faults of an organ in a large space is not wanted. Since sound travels at about 1100 ft/sec we can think of a latency of 50ms as being about right for organ pipes of speakers which are 55' away from the console. That degree of latency gives me fits but I am not a professional organist or even close to being one.

                    I'm curious about the good results orgelnut had with the HP. I have a Dell laptop that is similar I think with a 512GB SSD and no conventional hard drive. I must try it again without the external interface. The ticks, glitches, and the like are the primary reason so many of us gave up on audio through the reatek onboard chips. I'll do a little more experimenting as time permits.
                    http://www.kinkennon.com

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                    • #26
                      Originally posted by John Kinkennon View Post
                      I'm curious about the good results orgelnut had with the HP. I have a Dell laptop that is similar I think with a 512GB SSD and no conventional hard drive. I must try it again without the external interface. The ticks, glitches, and the like are the primary reason so many of us gave up on audio through the reatek onboard chips. I'll do a little more experimenting as time permits.
                      In my experience using the Realtek onboard audio with the ASIO4ALL driver is no more prone to produce audio glitches in HW than using another audio interface (such as my E-MU audio card) with its dedicated ASIO driver. I experienced glitches with both until I disabled SuperFetch so I'd suggest that you try that on your Dell laptop and see if that eliminates any audio problems you are experiencing. Unless there is something special about the audio on my HP Envy laptop (which I doubt) I think you'll be able to achieve low enough latency on your laptop without the expense or bother of an external audio interface. Latency will probably be a bit higher but I think we all agree that super low latency is not necessary or even detectable.

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                      • #27
                        I had a chance to try my Dell laptop without the external audio interface yesterday and found that I could get good results with Windows 10, build 18309, without using an external interface. This was for two channel stereo using a small sample set with reasonable polyphony requirements. So that's better than we used to see in the Win 7 days. The key may be the lack of a slow hard drive as everything is on SSD.

                        In my own case I run 10 to 12 audio channels using the full Goerlitz samples from Sonus Paradisi which needs 96 GB of system memory and a polyphony in the neighborhood of 6000 so a consumer audio interface is not an option. A modest sample set may indeed work well for starters and if it does for your PC then by all means take advantage of the cost savings until you are ready to take advantage of Hauptwerk's multichannel capabilities.

                        I have been advocating disabling SuperFetch for years. It is now renamed SysMain for new Windows 10 releases. I wonder if Microsoft thought we were learning too much about their audio problems? In any case expect to see SysMain causing the audio glitches in the future.
                        http://www.kinkennon.com

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                        • #28
                          Good to know about the renaming of SuperFetch, John. The largest sample set I use on my laptop is Metz which barely fits on my 8 GB of memory. I should expand it to16 GB someday. Since I only use headphones, 2 channels of audio is all I need. For someone with modest demands like me, a $500 laptop with touchscreen is really all you need to successfully run HW.

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                          • #29
                            Originally posted by John Kinkennon View Post
                            I The key may be the lack of a slow hard drive as everything is on SSD.
                            I'm puzzled by this statement as Hauptwerk does not real-time stream from disk, so disk speed only has a direct impact Hauptwerk's sample loading speed. Are you thinking that having an SSD is causing less interference from background processes using the disk while Hauptwerk is running?
                            -Admin

                            Allen 965
                            Zuma Group Midi Keyboard Encoder
                            Zuma Group DM Midi Stop Controller
                            Hauptwerk 4.2

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                            • #30
                              Originally posted by Admin View Post
                              I'm puzzled by this statement as Hauptwerk does not real-time stream from disk, so disk speed only has a direct impact Hauptwerk's sample loading speed. Are you thinking that having an SSD is causing less interference from background processes using the disk while Hauptwerk is running?
                              I'm speculating that perhaps SysMain (SuperFetch) is storing its results, what it learns about likely memory access patterns, on the disk and that SSD speeds that process a bit. Pure speculation though everything does run faster with SSD. Just a guess. I no longer need to turn off Creative Cloud service since I cancelled my Adobe $55/mo. package, LOL. I haven't been turning off WiFi or OneDrive (cloud) or even Bluetooth lately, just that dang SysMain process. I do disable nearly all notifications in Win 10 but have been able to leave the motherboard audio enabled with System Sounds set to None.
                              http://www.kinkennon.com

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