Dreaming my virtual organ

[Marcop]

Hi there!
My dream is to add to my little home studio a virtual midi organ... of course I'm budget and space limited, but I still need quality in my minimal requirements.
I already have got a honestly equipped PC, audio card and monitors (actually, I use my Clavinova Clp 675 extremely fine speakers).
So I'm looking for a 2-manuals system with a midi 25-27 pedals along with std 2 expression and volume pedals. Then, of course, a bench and a minimalistic console/support.
My first attempt was looking to http://www.france-hauptwerk.com/cont...FFRICHTER.html materials, than to that Vicount materials list:
VISCOUNT Cantorum Duo
2x Pedale d'espressione per pedaliera MIDI
Pedaliera Midi - 27 Diritta Radiale
Bench for Cantorum Duo
Stand Cantorum Duo - Standard

Would you maybe suggest any other solution?
Thanks and regards,
Marco,
Roma
p.s.
Please note that I don't want to assembly anything (bricolage allergic). Also I do prefer to buy everything from the same manufacturers/reseller.

[jbird604]

I don't own a separate MIDI system for Hauptwerk, and use my existing Rodgers organ console. But the set you see from Viscount is surely very attractive. The price is low and all the parts would be certain to work together. The only cheaper alternative would be to find a used organ with MIDI OUT connector. Then you'd have all the parts already assembled in one piece. But it might be easier to get the new equipment from Viscount.

[rjsilva]

If you're considering the Viscount Cantorum Duo I wouldn't necessarily suggest you also set up a VPO. The Viscount will have modern sounds which sound very good and adding the expense of a VPO/sampleset might have dubious value (unless you're actually wanting to pretend you're playing a specific pipe organ).

On the other hand, if you can find a used older console like jbird mentioned which has MIDI then adding a VPO could make a lot of sense since you would get the benefit of substantially better sound than what the console has built in.

[Marcop]

I don't own a separate MIDI system for Hauptwerk, and use my existing Rodgers organ console. But the set you see from Viscount is surely very attractive. The price is low and all the parts would be certain to work together. The only cheaper alternative would be to find a used organ with MIDI OUT connector. Then you'd have all the parts already assembled in one piece. But it might be easier to get the new equipment from Viscount.

Hi John and many thanks for your answer. I think I will go to visit their showroom next month.

[Marcop]

If you're considering the Viscount Cantorum Duo I wouldn't necessarily suggest you also set up a VPO. The Viscount will have modern sounds which sound very good and adding the expense of a VPO/sampleset might have dubious value (unless you're actually wanting to pretend you're playing a specific pipe organ).

On the other hand, if you can find a used older console like jbird mentioned which has MIDI then adding a VPO could make a lot of sense since you would get the benefit of substantially better sound than what the console has built in.

Many thanks for helping. I'm indeed very attracted by Hauptwerk VPO systems... It's quite likely I will buy the Viscount Cantorum duo and try also to use it as a VPO console.

[Leisesturm]

Many thanks for helping. I'm indeed very attracted by Hauptwerk VPO systems... It's quite likely I will buy the Viscount Cantorum duo and try also to use it as a VPO console.

Hi Marco. You received good advice last month so I didn't try to add any. What rjsilva is saying is that a Viscount Cantorum is more than enough organ for your needs. If you try to use it as a VPO console you will be limited by the very small physical console. It would not be worth the effort. There are 4 small Hauptwerk organs inside the Cantorum. They are already mapped to the stop controls and keyboards/pedalboard of the console. If that is not enough, then the (good) advice you received was to start with a church organ console and add Hauptwerk to it. Doing it that way you do not waste any money and essentially buy the same organ twice.

[tbeck]

What difference does the size of the console make?

You can use external components for a VPO. They don't have to inside the case. Granted, it won't have the same cosmetic appeal, but you can certainly have the functionality.

[Leisesturm]

Yes, some components can be outside the case. I am talking about functionality. The Cantorum console has just enough stop controls and pistons/couplers for its modest needs. Hook it up to a more substantial Hauptwerk sampleset containing more stops and accessories and ... ... of course you could limit the size of any Hauptwerk samplesets to only those that are small enough not to need more console. I'm just not seeing the point of that, but that might just be me (and rjsilva).

[tbeck]

I'm talking about functionality too. You don't have to limit your sample set to the number of stop controls on your console. Heck, I'm making do right now with a 61 note keyboard controller stacked on a virtual piano. No stop controls. I use all the functionality of a console from the VPO's visual interface. I also assign some of my unused keys to the combo sequencer, cancel button, etc.

Why limit your choice of available instruments to play based on the size of your console?

[Marcop]

Thanks again to everybody. I'm agree with “tbeck”. I may add a little mini-table to host PC, audio card and touch screen. Maybe not the very best you may desire, but still a system working pretty fine. At least for me. Speaking about the console, I think that it would be quite difficult for me to find a good secondhand one of little dimensions in church's stile organs. I have found many genuine VPO minimal systems and with the only exception of the Hoffritcher, they're all pretty more expensive than the Viscount set. Then it's likely a will go in that direction.

[John Kinkennon]

I think you are on the right track. I looked at the web site mentioned in your first post and this looks like a very capable organization. I would love to be able to visit their showroom just to check out the beautiful consoles. Good luck.

[jbird604]

I'd hazard a guess that it costs FAR less money to set up a VPO if you are content to use a touch screen (or a pair of screens, one per side like drawknob towers). Using mechanical controls would seem to be a very costly extra, UNLESS you start with a salvaged organ console that happens to already have the exact number of stop controls you need, laid out as you want them and labeled with the names you want. In that case, you can probably buy a relatively inexpensive interface of some kind to operate the existing tabs or knobs from the VPO program.

Come to think of it, a touch-screen has certain advantages in addition to low cost. You can instantly change over to a different organ and have the layout of the controls perfectly match up with the new organ, have the correct names on the knobs/tabs, correct division names, etc.

The only downside to a touch-screen, other than simply being less authentic, is that you lose that mechanical feel. That is certainly an important element to many. I dearly love the silky smooth action of the mechanical drawknobs on the church Allen. (But I am far less enamored of the stiff and awkward lighted drawknobs on my Rodgers at home, could gladly exchange them for simple touch screens!)

Once you decide to build a VPO with touch screens, you can make it as simple or as elaborate as you want. As you have seen, there are many such organs set up with nothing more than a naked keystack on a table top of appropriate height, and a pedalboard in the floor underneath the table. As long as the keys and pedals are at the correct height and lateral position with respect to your bench and to one another, this setup should feel perfectly normal. Then you can securely mount your touch screen or screens on some "wings" attached beside the keystack.

The advantage to starting with a salvaged console might be that the keyboards and pedals will already be at the right locations, and perhaps the expression and/or crescendo shoes will also already be installed at the correct height. That saves a lot of tinkering and figuring. You can still hack away the old stop rail or knob towers and install your touch screens.

One feature I'd certainly want in my own VPO would be a music desk placed immediately atop and behind the uppermost keyboard. I have a terrible time reaching up high, and the music desks on both my home organ and my church organ are too high for comfort.

[Marcop]

Hi John!
Many thanks again.
A decent touch screen (only one...) will certainly be part of my VPO ensemble. Speaking about the music desk I should state that I'm unfortunately very limited by the extremely little dimensions at my “studiolo“ (being the bigger one already completely filled out, and also hosting, indeed, my Piano), but at least for the beginning (some few years lol), I would be satisfied when having things reachable without any acrobatics just by my side.
Marco

[Ordinary_Man]

I too have been looking at the Viscount Duo (through the website, I'm in the USA) and would like to point out to Marco that the pedalboard looks like it will require purchasing the wider "Large" stand for the organ.I don't think the pedals will fit under the "Standard" table. It's not a lot more money (considering the entire cost of the system) and it's likely a visit to the showroom (or a look at the dimensions of the pieces) will make that obvious.

Good luck in your pursuit! The Cantorum Duo system looks like a very attractive organ. If you do purchase it, please come back here and review it for us!

[Marcop]

Thanks!
Yes, the bigger stand is obviously necessary.
I hope to visit their showroom at the end of this month.
See you soon
Marco

[Marcop]

Hi there!
I was at their showroom and YES, I will buy it! I even got a price I can't tell you :-)
Now I'm only a little bit worried by the process of getting an Hauptwerk system from it. I have to buy a new pc, it was planned... but, what was not planned is the eventually necessary change of my Steinberg UR22mkII audio card and the acquiring of a decent monitor (pair of?) since my Clavinova's super hi-fi will remain quite away from the organ position. Speaking about that(those) monitor(s), they have this https://www.viscountinstruments.it/v2-6.html that would eventually fits for me. But I still must confess my week ability in plugging and configuration issues.
Looking now forward to see the organ at my home.
See you soon,
Marco

[Stefank]

Hi,
On the danger of saying the obvious...
But,... if you want to go for a "economic yet good setup", why not go for the real thing: get a hammond L100...L122.
I got myself one about a month ago. I paid 250euro's and got a 1 speaker Leslie cabinet included. That I think was a real bargain. The Leslie was not working but that appeared to be a loose wire in the plug (which I was more or less expecting when I bought it).

I just want so say,... I played for about 15years with the "real hammond branded" XM1 module.
However,... when I did hit the L122 I was almost crying about what I missed for al those years.

If I read what you want buy I guess that will bring your investment easily to a few 100 euro's. For that money I would strongly suggest to go for the real deal.

The L122 has really good sound. Of course the general myth is that you need a B3 but that's not true. Sound is the same. L122 is missing foldback in the upper octave and has less "full sized" manual compare to B3 and that's all. The foldback you can add later but tbh, even without you get a long way. Size of manual is no real downer. The advantage is that weight is around 60kg or so and it does not occupy the full living room.

I got mine for 250euro. I was not really hunting. I had a vague wish to get one "some time" and just happened to see the add for an L122 3km from where I live. If you really go hunt you probably will even find a cheaper one although I must say I see most advertised for about 400euro excluding Leslie. If you check advertisements weekly over half a year I'm however pretty sure you'll find something under 300. With a little luck you may be able to hit 150 or so.

On top of all,...
If you really want good sound.. You'll need a mechanical Leslie.
If I had to choose between a midi-organ with mechanical Leslie or a real Tonewheel with electronic Leslie the choice would be the latter.
In my option (others will have different opinion), Leslie brand is not strictly necessary. I have a 2 speaker Solton and that works fine.
At this moment I'm using the smaller 1 speaker cabinet that came with the organ for simple reason that the solton is big&ugly and my wife does not want it in the living room. Not sure how I will go on that in future.

Anyway,... I CAN understand the "ease" of midi, but in that case: why not simply use the iPad-included garageband and connect to a midi keyboard. THAT I can understand to be a sub-optimal but economic, portable, lightweight alternative.

Anyway.... my 2cts...

[Marcop]

Stefank I'm sorry to say it sharply, but we're honestly very very distant in ours ideas concerning the subject. Wishing you the best.

[Stefank]

i Guess that indeed means our ideas are very different, still is wish you a well meant pleasure with your project.