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**Admin** · 10-02-2020, 07:03 AM

You're welcome to discuss your project on the Forum. There's no prohibition against publishing or inquiring about specifications, but as you noted, there are guidelines. The problem we had ten years ago was that people were posting specifications of huge, and I mean huge, fantasy organs that would never be built. As long as you're discussing realistic and practical specifications, they'll be no complaints.

Welcome to the Forum.

**wave.jaco** · 10-02-2020, 11:56 AM

Thank you very much for the kind welcoming to the forum. I am truly looking forward to sharing in many discussions on the forum.

Apologies in advance for the long post that is about to followâ€¦

As I mentioned in the first post, my current organ is basically a 2 rank (Diapason & Flute rank) unit organ, from which stops from 16' to 1' pitches are derived over 2 manuals & pedals. I am particularly looking at adding a soft string rank like a Salicional to it, just to have something else to complement the Diapason & Flute rank.

Since this is a home organ, I would be using it almost exclusively for practising and just merely enjoying playing organ music, and of course the occasional home concert here and there with friends & family. My aim with this rebuild is to have the “best of both sides” of the pipe organ and a VPO - the pipes for enjoying the authentic instrument for what it is, and the VPO side to really push the bar and just purely enjoying it. There will also be the option of playing it with headphones (for those late night practise sessions to keep the neighbours and rest of the family in the house happy) and also with speakers for other occasions. It will also be a drawknob console, with the minor possibility of adding a small touch screen/input platform for some “extras”, but I am aiming to stay away from this.

One the VPO side I have gone through countless available organs, none of which truly satisfy all of my requirements in a single organ (I would like to avoid switching between sample sets as far as possible, especially due to it being a drawknob console). Many of them come really close to what I want, but just has something missing to my taste (like the Rotterdam sample set from Sonus Paradisi - a marvellous set indeed from what I have heard of it from various recordings!) So I have decided to go the composite organ route and use a base sample set and add/adapt stops as per my requirements. As mentioned in my first post, I plan on only using freely available samples.

The base organ I would like to use is the superb Friesach sample set by Piotr Grabowski. This organ is already excellent on its own, but it has a few shortcomings in terms of available resources (such as a proper Positive division for French organ music and especially the overall disposition in general for orchestral transcriptions). Therefore the VPO I am trying to build is essentially a symphonic organ in multiple senses - both “organ-symphonic” and symphonic in the style of many town hall organs of the late 19^th century up to date. This calls for quite a collection of the usual organ stops, but especially some extra string and reed stops and perhaps a percussion stop here and there.

Looking around on the forum a bit, I have found this thread, where a remarkable composite instrument has been built up from the Friesach, Rotterdam & Goerlitz organ sets. Finding this gave me a lot of hope and excitement in pursuing this endeavour and doing something very similar (I initially thought I am perhaps too ambitious).

Now, very knowingly at the risk of possibly opening a can of worms, I would like to propose what I had in mind for the VPO specification. Here goes!

The basic idea is to have a 4 manual instrument in the typical cathedral organ drawknob console style. Apart from the usual that you would encounter in such an organ, each division would have the following particular requirements:
Pedal:

Two 32' stops for each of the foundation & reed stop types - one softer and one heavy stop for each type. Thus, four 32' stops in total.
Two sets of 16', 8' & 4' reeds. One “softer” set for typical Baroque music and another “louder” set for the rest.
A set of stops from each of the Diapason, Bourdon & string families in 16', 8' and 4'.
A pedal mixture, particularly for Baroque music, that can be used independently instead of coupling a mixture from another division.

Positive/Choir (Manual 1):

The basic idea is the typical medium-sized Choir/Positive division you would encounter on a 4 manual instrument.
A Flute Celeste-type of stop on 8' pitch, as a nice supplement/complement to the Vox Celeste on the Swell.
A “low” and “high” quint-pitched stop as mutation stops.
A 1' flute stop for some interesting effects (such as gap-registrations).
A few “softer” reed stops on 16' and 8' pitch that can be used as solo stops.
A mixture (or two), on the smaller side, that can be effectively used complementary to the Great's plenum.

Great (Manual 2):

As usual, the solid “main” division of the organ.
Principal & flute chorus from 16' to 2'.
A Second Diapason 8' to complement the main 8' Diapason, typically inspired by the larger English organs.
Two to three mixtures to support a few different styles of organ music, but can also be used together in a Tutti for a nice bright sound.
Trumpet stops on 16', 8' and 4' pitches.

Swell (Manual 3):

A very versatile division with a range of foundation stops from “thin” to “thick” to give a broad range of options for orchestral transcriptions, especially on 8' pitch.
Mutations to build up a Cornet, as well as a “high” quint to complement the “high” quint on the Choir/Positive.
A variety of reed stops of various tonal colours.

Solo (Manual 4):

As the name states, an array of stops for solo use - from flutes to strings to reeds.
A percussion stop or two.

Bombarde (floating division):

A battery of loud Tubas and Chamades on 16', 8' and 4' pitches (for 1812 Overture-type of moments and the like).

Below follows the proposed specification. As mentioned before, the organ is based on the Friesach sample set with its stops indicated in black. Stops indicated in blue are the additions to make up the composite organ. Also note that the original divisions have been renamed accordingly.

CHOIR/POSITIVE I (expressive)	GREAT II	SWELL III (expressive)	SOLO IV (expressive)	BOMBARDE (floating)	PEDAL
Quintadena 16'	Praestant 16'	Bourdon 16'	Diapason Stentor 8'	Trompete en chamade 16'	Untersatz 32'
Bourdon 8'	Bourdon 16'	Contra Viola 16'	Flute Harmonique 8'	Trompete en chamade 8'	Double Open Diapason 32'
Bourdon Celeste 8'	Principal 8' (1st)	Principal 8'	Jubalflöte 8'	Trompete en chamade 4'	Diapason 16'
Quintadena 8'	Second diapason 8'	Nachthorn Gedackt 8'	Viola da Gamba 8'	Tuba Magna 16'	ContrabaÃŸ 16'
Principal 8'	Holzflöte 8'	Corno dolce 8'	Octave Stentor 4'	Tuba Mirabilis 8'	SubbaÃŸ 16'
Unda Maris 8'	Röhrflöte 8'	Viola 8'	Trichterflöte 4'	Tuba Clarion 4'	OctavbaÃŸ 8'
Prestant 4'	Gambe 8'	Vox celeste 8'	Cornet a pavilon 1-8f. 8'		Gedackt 8'
Flute 4'	Octave 4'	Aeoline 8'	French Horn 8'		Viole 8'
Nazard 2 2/3'	Spitzflöte 4'	Geigenprincipal 4'	Clarinet 8'		ChoralbaÃŸ 4'
Octave 2'	Quinte 2 2/3'	Querflöte 4'	Englischhorn 16'		Flute 4'
Doublette 2'	Octave 2'	Violine 4'	Orchestral Oboe 8'		Mixture IV/V
Larigot 1 1/3'	Flute 2'	Nazard 2 2/3'	Bass Trumpet 16'		Contra Fagott 32'
Piccolo 1'	Mixtur major 4-5f. 2 2/3'	Flageolett 2'	Trompeta Real 8'		Fagott 16'
Mixture III/IV	Mixtur minor 4f. 1 1/3'	Tierce 1 3/5'	Trumpet Clarion 4'		Basson 8'
Cymbel III	Scherp 6-8	Larigot 1 1/3'			Schalmei 4'
Dulcian 16'	Trompete 16'	Sifflote 1'	Carillon		Contra Posaune 32'
Cornopean 8'	Trompete 8'	Plein Jeu 4-5f. 2'	Celesta		Posaune 16'
Clarinet 8'	Trompete 4'	Scharff 4f. 1'			Trompete 8'
Krummhorn 8'		Double Trumpet 16'	Tremolo		Clarion 4'
	I/II	Trompete harmonique 8'
Tremolo	III/II	Clairon 4'	Bombarde/IV		I / P
	IV/II	Fagott 16'			II / P
III/I	Bombarde/II	Hautbois 8'			III / P
IV/I		Vox Humana 8'			IV / P
Bombarde/I					Bombarde/P
		Tremolo

		IV/III
		Bombarde/III

Some groups of the stops are unit extensions of one another (the Bombarde division stops are typical examples). Having experimented with the tuning options of stops in GrandOrgue, I have figured out how to do such extensions on existing stops. This is particularly exciting for realising those 32' stops in the pedal! Also, celeste-type stops are relatively easy to construct by slight detuning.

There will be a lot of experimentation to perform in determining which stops from the Rotterdam & Goerlitz demo sets (and perhaps even other sets) can be utilised in which divisions. However, I am strongly considering at least the following from the Rotterdam demo set:

Using the Bazuin 16' on the Pedal division as the “strong” 16' reed.
Adding the Scherp 6-8 mixture to the Great division.
Using the Chamade stops to replace the Friesach Trompete en chamade (with extensions) and using the Friesach chamade (with extensions) as the Trumpet unit on the Solo division.

Regarding couplers: You might notice that there are no octave/sub-octave couplers present. The specification is purposefully designed so that these would not be necessary. However, these are by no means out of the question if it would make sense to include them as well.

By now you might be thinking that I am very ambitious about this project. Yes, this is quite a huge organ that will be able to make an enormous sound with the Tutti. Although this will certainly have its place in some performances, the large specification is instead aimed at obtaining as large a tonal variety as possible/practical yet suitable for nearly all the genres I intend to play, without ending up with a gigantic 200/300-odd rank organ.

So there you have it. If you made it up to this point, thank you very much for reading my busy and enthusiastic/ambitious mind jotted down in words. I would highly value any comments on any/all of the above.

Looking forward to discussing and sharing this with everyone!ðŸ˜ƒ
Many thanks!

**voet** · 10-02-2020, 02:55 PM

What an ambitious project wave.jaco. I look forward to reading about your project. I have a couple of comments.

1. Are you using your pipes in the above specification? If so, where?
2. I would find it easier if the reeds were listed by pitch, and then volume level. Sometimes you want to use a softer 16' reed with a louder 8' reed. It would be less intuitive to me to have them separated. Instead of
Contra Fagott 32' Fagott 16' Basson 8' Schalmei 4' Contra Posaune 32' Posaune 16' Trompete 8' Clarion 4'

I would find this layout easier to use

Posaune 32' Contra Fagott 32' Posaune 16' Fagott 16' Trompete 8' Basson 8' Clarion 4' Schalmei 4'

Obviously if your original layout is standard practice in your country, that would be a different matter.

Good luck in your endeavor.

**myorgan** · 10-02-2020, 04:21 PM

Ditto what Bill said. I had difficulty folllowing the Swell Reed Chorus (16', 8', 4') because they were mixed in what appeared to be a random order.

I'm also wondering about the usefulness of so much extreme upper-work. For example, there are two 1' stops (that I can find), as well as two 1-¹/₃' stops on the organ. If they are pipe ranks, they will be fairly difficult to keep in tune if temperature changes. I was also missing a Flute Celeste until I found it in the Choir. I've never seen it there before, but I'm sure there's probably a reason.

For both a "symphonic organ," and French Romantic organ, I seem to be missing enough Strings to hold up against stops from other divisions. Just something to consider. Perhaps the Strings could be consolidated between 2 manuals, and use stops which can serve both as Strings and/or Foundation stops-maybe on the Choir? I've always like the Erzähler & Erzähler Celeste, or even a Dulciana & Dulciana Celeste on the Choir. Others use a Gemshorn & Celeste to serve that purpose.

I guess what I'm getting at is that the manuals should have a clearly defined purpose rather than trying to be all things to all people. Your specification will come together more clearly once your manuals have been defined.

Just my 2Â¢ worth (My advice is actually worth less than that)!;-)

Michael

P.S. You have an 8' Viole in the Pedal. Was there supposed to be a 16' String there as well?

**wave.jaco** · 10-05-2020, 12:44 PM

Thank you for the kind replies so far!

Originally posted by voet View Post

What an ambitious project wave.jaco. I look forward to reading about your project. I have a couple of comments.

1. Are you using your pipes in the above specification? If so, where?
2. I would find it easier if the reeds were listed by pitch, and then volume level. Sometimes you want to use a softer 16' reed with a louder 8' reed. It would be less intuitive to me to have them separated. Instead of
Contra Fagott 32' Fagott 16' Basson 8' Schalmei 4' Contra Posaune 32' Posaune 16' Trompete 8' Clarion 4'

I would find this layout easier to use

Posaune 32' Contra Fagott 32' Posaune 16' Fagott 16' Trompete 8' Basson 8' Clarion 4' Schalmei 4'

Obviously if your original layout is standard practice in your country, that would be a different matter.

Good luck in your endeavor.

Thank you for your comments. You raise two interesting points - first being including the actual pipe ranks in the specification. On the one side I somewhat forgot about this in the specification I posted, but then I also realised that I was exclusively focused on the VPO side of the organ. Come to think of it, this is something I need to ponder, since it might look/feel somewhat confusing if I were to include the pipe ranks' stops in between the VPO stops (Imagine having to see e.g. two 8', 4' and 2' Diapason stops (real and virtual) right next to/below each other and in the heat of the moment select the wrong one while playing). So I might resort to grouping the pipe ranks' stop knobs together at the top/bottom of their respective division's other stop knobs. I will have to give this some thought - thanks for raising this point.

About the order in which the reeds occur (that both you and Michael mentioned): To be honest I have mostly played on consoles using stop tabs, and in South Africa I have typically encountered that the Swell reeds are ordered in groups according to volume, and within that group ordered by pitch. However, I do recall on one or two drawknob consoles I played on that the reeds were ordered by pitch and then by volume, as you suggested. Depending on how the actual stops will be laid out on the stop jambs, there might be more than one row of stops per division. That could definitely play a role in what order will enjoy preference. But this is why I love to have discussions like this - it is very interesting and enlightening to hear other people's opinions about this.

Ditto what Bill said. I had difficulty folllowing the Swell Reed Chorus (16', 8', 4') because they were mixed in what appeared to be a random order.

I'm also wondering about the usefulness of so much extreme upper-work. For example, there are two 1' stops (that I can find), as well as two 1-¹/₃' stops on the organ. If they are pipe ranks, they will be fairly difficult to keep in tune if temperature changes. I was also missing a Flute Celeste until I found it in the Choir. I've never seen it there before, but I'm sure there's probably a reason.

For both a "symphonic organ," and French Romantic organ, I seem to be missing enough Strings to hold up against stops from other divisions. Just something to consider. Perhaps the Strings could be consolidated between 2 manuals, and use stops which can serve both as Strings and/or Foundation stops-maybe on the Choir? I've always like the Erzähler & Erzähler Celeste, or even a Dulciana & Dulciana Celeste on the Choir. Others use a Gemshorn & Celeste to serve that purpose.

I guess what I'm getting at is that the manuals should have a clearly defined purpose rather than trying to be all things to all people. Your specification will come together more clearly once your manuals have been defined.

Just my 2Â¢ worth (My advice is actually worth less than that)!;-)

Michael

P.S. You have an 8' Viole in the Pedal. Was there supposed to be a 16' String there as well?

Good point you mention about the "extreme upper-work". I suppose that the 1' and 1-¹/₃' stops on the Swell would not be of much use if they are also present on the Choir. Also, as mentioned in my reply to Bill's post, the specification was exclusively for the VPO side and did not include any pipe ranks (yet). Now that you mentioned it, I might even neglect the 1' unit extension on the pipes side, since it is not really very useful in the context of where the organ will be used. The 1-¹/₃' stop could perhaps still be used, but most certainly only on the Flute rank and not on the Diapason rank (those high Diapason pipes in this particular organ are very "screamy"!).

There is no specific reason that the Flute Celeste is located in the Choir division, other than that I think it might be a good idea to have the two Celeste stops in different divisions. They can then be altered during playing. But would you rather recommend otherwise?

Good point regarding the lack of string stops in the Choir division for the "symphonic" and French Romantic styles. That Unda Maris in the Choir is certainly not going to be enough and the Quintadena is of a different timbre altogether. Maybe the Gambe on the Great can be moved to the Choir, since it can just be coupled to the Great from the Choir if need be. I think the reason that the Gambe was on the Great (Hauptwerk) of the Friesach organ is that there really is no Choir manual on that organ where that stop can be located. In the case of my organ, it can certainly function better in the Choir division. That will effectively consolidate the strings between 2 manuals as you suggested. I might even consider a complementary Celeste for it in the Choir as well, as per your suggestion. However, I think the Viola da Gamba on the Solo is an exception, being a solo stop and not an ensemble stop.

At this point I must admit the first three manuals are still somewhat "all things to all people" as you pointed out. I think the Great manual should be much like the "traditional" Great, while the Swell and Choir manuals should be complementary in roles while still being able to function independently. The specifications should lend themselves to play the traditional repertoire very well, but be equally useful together in more "symphonic" playing. Any ideas perhaps on what other roles can be proposed to the different manuals?

The 16' string in the pedal is supposed to be the Contrabass 16' stop. I think in the Friesach organ it serves more like a Diapason-type stop, but in my organ it would serve more as a string stop.

A lot of things to ponder indeed! But as I mentioned in my reply to Bill's post, this is why I love discussions like this. One can always learn something new, rethink things and stretch the imagination a bit.

As you might see, your advice is definitely worth much more than 2Â¢ to me! ðŸ˜ƒ So thank you very much for that!

Best regards
Jaco

**myorgan** · 10-05-2020, 06:13 PM

Jaco,

I apologize, in that I forgot you were in Africa rather than Europe or North America. Certainly, traditions in organ building vary from continent to continent.

Originally posted by wave.jaco View Post

Maybe the Gambe on the Great can be moved to the Choir, since it can just be coupled to the Great from the Choir if need be. I think the reason that the Gambe was on the Great (Hauptwerk) of the Friesach organ is that there really is no Choir manual on that organ where that stop can be located.

Personally, I wouldn't move the Gamba from the Great. So far, I've played 2 French Romantic pieces for organ, orchestra, and choir, and BOTH of them specifically requested the 8' Gamba in the Great (as well as a Bourdon 8').

Originally posted by wave.jaco View Post

At this point I must admit the first three manuals are still somewhat "all things to all people" as you pointed out. I think the Great manual should be much like the "traditional" Great, while the Swell and Choir manuals should be complementary in roles while still being able to function independently. The specifications should lend themselves to play the traditional repertoire very well, but be equally useful together in more "symphonic" playing. Any ideas perhaps on what other roles can be proposed to the different manuals?

My experience has primarily been with organs known as "American Classic" in design. The general premise (IMHO) for the manual stop distribution is roughly:

Swell-French Romantic with stops necessary to produce a French Cornet, a Reed Chorus voiced in French style (i.e. Trompette), and at least 1 solo Reed, a String Celeste (i.e. Salicional w/Voix Celeste), as well as possibly another String Celeste which could double as a soft Diapason (i.e. Gemshorn & Celeste).
Great-Germanic and foundational in nature with a complete Diapason Chorus, Flute Chorus, and a String or Flute Celeste. There would also be an ensemble Reed (i.e. Trumpet), and perhaps a Solo Reed (i.e. Schalmei).
Choir-Generally Baroque in nature with 1-1/3' Mutation to be used with an 8' stop, either 1 or 2 Solo Reed(s) like a Krummhorn, and another String Celeste or two.

The Mixtures would be brighter on the Swell & Choir, and based on a lower pitch in the Great. Of course, there would be other stops which help fill out the registration, like 16' stops, other reed stops, and percussion stops, but the general distribution is listed above. Perhaps the biggest rule is that the above ALWAYS has exceptions.;-)

Other divisions get named (i.e. Bombarde, Solo, Etherial, String, etc.), but tend to be a mixed bag, depending on what their intended purpose is. I've found what I've written above is generally true for Allen, Rodgers, Zimmer, Austin, and other pipe organs of "American Classic" design.

Speaking of pipe organs, perhaps you could use an asterisk to indicate pipe stops vs. Hauptwerk (or vice versa).

Michael

**wave.jaco** · 10-06-2020, 06:16 AM

Originally posted by myorgan View Post

Jaco,
Personally, I wouldn't move the Gamba from the Great. So far, I've played 2 French Romantic pieces for organ, orchestra, and choir, and BOTH of them specifically requested the 8' Gamba in the Great (as well as a Bourdon 8').

Very good point you make there - I didn't think of that. So the Gamba will rather stay on the Great then and I will add another string (and maybe a complementing Celeste) to the Choir, that is certainly needed there.

Originally posted by myorgan View Post

My experience has primarily been with organs known as "American Classic" in design. The general premise (IMHO) for the manual stop distribution is roughly...
...
Other divisions get named (i.e. Bombarde, Solo, Etherial, String, etc.), but tend to be a mixed bag, depending on what their intended purpose is. I've found what I've written above is generally true for Allen, Rodgers, Zimmer, Austin, and other pipe organs of "American Classic" design.

Thanks for the outline. This is also how I roughly understand it. But as you say, there are always exceptions to the rule, especially in organ building! I think as I continue with this project I will reach a final specification taking into consideration a few points that have already been mentioned and some that might still be raised.

Originally posted by myorgan View Post

Speaking of pipe organs, perhaps you could use an asterisk to indicate pipe stops vs. Hauptwerk (or vice versa).

Very good idea! I think I should draw a few stop layouts approximately to scale and investigate what would work the best. I think a lot will be revealed when the layout becomes more "visual", rather than just being a table of columns and rows of stop names.

**Pipeorganbuilder** · 10-06-2020, 10:14 AM

This is a very good discussion of how pipe organs are designed not only in the USA but other countries. Thanks for everyone's input.

**myorgan** · 10-06-2020, 04:14 PM

Originally posted by Pipeorganbuilder View Post

This is a very good discussion of how pipe organs are designed not only in the USA but other countries. Thanks for everyone's input.

Speaking of this topic, it's important to realize that in European organs, the Great tends to ALWAYS be physically the lowest manual on the organ (there are exceptions).

When you put your organ together, what about allowing for either system to be set up with the manuals electronically interchangeable?

Michael

**wave.jaco** · 10-06-2020, 08:45 PM

Originally posted by myorgan View Post

Speaking of this topic, it's important to realize that in European organs, the Great tends to ALWAYS be physically the lowest manual on the organ (there are exceptions).

When you put your organ together, what about allowing for either system to be set up with the manuals electronically interchangeable?

Very good point. This is indeed something I had in the back of my head, but somewhat forgot of. I will certainly be including such a "Manual Transfer" function in the organ. I have actually used it on an Allen organ before and it made a huge difference especially with some French Romantic repertoire. I have also seen a few organists perform Petr Eben's "Moto Ostinato" on organs without such transfer/manual layout and it makes for some interesting jumps between manuals in the last section of that piece!

I am now also thinking of adding a Pedal Divide function. I have never used such function before, but have seen it used on some YouTube videos with very interesting effect. It might come in handy especially with some orchestral transcriptions.

**wave.jaco** · 10-09-2020, 12:10 PM

I thought jaco was going to have a combination pipe/Hauptwerk organ? If so, shouldn't there be some means of manual transfer, or will it NOT matter when combined with a VPO.

Quite right, it is indeed a combination pipe/virtual organ. However, in this case it wouldn't necessarily matter, since the pipe organ side is only a 2 manual organ which will be for divisions Great and Swell. Since the manual transfer would be between the Great and Choir manuals, this isn't applicable to the pipe organ side and can therefore be done purely on the VPO side in software.

**wave.jaco** · 03-15-2021, 06:47 AM

So although it has been a little quiet the past time, I have finally managed to bring nearly all parts of the original home pipe organ from storage to my garage to start the project. Here are just a few pictures to show this is going to happen for real ðŸ˜ƒ

I have started a separate thread focusing on the windchest and where I share some thoughts on redesigning the chest.

Here is the crate containing all the pipes and some other loose parts of the internals. At the back is the façade framework and to the right you can see part of the pedalboard, with the bellow in front of it.

Here we have another photo of the façade framework, again with the pedalboard and bellow visible on the right:

This is what it looked like when the organ was still assembled (note from my previous posts that it will be completely redesigned):

Here is the old switching matrix that is going to be completely replaced by my own electronic control system. Here in South Africa we call these actuators "up-raisers". To be honest, I am not entirely sure what the correct term for these are.

And here we have the pipe support racks that hold the pipes in place on the windchest:

To put it mildly, I am extremely excited about this project!!ðŸ˜ƒðŸ˜ƒðŸ˜ƒ

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