Virtual Pipe organ Sampling

[Kontra Bombarde 64]

Hi everyone. Sorry for the long absence. I am thinking about recording some wood pipes I have and turning them into a Hauptwerk Sample set. I will say more about the pipes if the project turns out to be feasible, but I just have some questions to start.
Keeping cost in mind...
1. Is the project feasible?
2. Would it work to use the CODM and the Example Custom Organ 1 as a base?
3. What microphones should I use, and would my Logitech USB Microphone work
4. What should I use to blow the pipes? These are just some wooden pipes that are not on a windchest or anything.
5. One of the pipes does not have the wood and metal tube at the bottom (I forget the name of it). Does anyone know how those parts are made?
Thanks.

[Larason2]

1: Yes it is feasible, but given what you have, it won't be easy! There's lots of sampled predominantly wooden organs in a small space, for instance the Melcer chamber organ. Much easier to just use that instead. It's also free.
2: Yes, but if you're planning to use Hauptwerk, it's a good idea to email MDA and get registered as a sample set developer. They will help you get the right tools to encode the .wav files correctly.
3: Logitech USB microphone: no, not really. It's better to get proper pro-level microphones, usually you can rent them and an interface with enough inputs from a local music store. They can help guide you, though there are threads on the Hauptwerk forum that go into more details on which microphones to use.
4: You'll need to have some kind of windchest. This sounds like it will be the hardest part of the project for you. You can build a small one pipe chest, with adjustable tops for putting the pipes on, but if you're going to build a bellows anyway, you might as well build a proper chest.
5: I think you're probably talking about the toe of the pipe. You need a wooden dowel of the right diameter with the right size hole, glue it in, and put a sleeve on it (probably tin/lead alloy pipe metal). There's tutorials for pipe making online.

In addition to this, even if you have them recorded, you'll have to spend a fair bit of time "denoising" the recordings using an appropriate software. That's the "secret sauce" of sample set producers, and you usually have to figure out how to do this for yourself. That being said though, there's a number of amateur organ recorders who partner with a professional sample set producer (for instance, Augustine of Augustine's Virtual Organs) to process the files for them. They can give you tips on how to record it properly, and there's others who will do it for a price (whom you can find on the Hauptwerk forum). Don't bother with any of the big names like Sonus Paradisi, Piotr Grabowski, or Organ Art Media, but some of the smaller makers like Forestpipes or Pipeloops might.

[jbird604]

No doubt the process is quite complex. Somewhere on the internet I've read an account of the entire process, from making the recordings to processing and cleaning up the recordings, setting loop points, turning all that into the properly formatted file, etc. You might search around for that. I don't recall who it was that wrote it.

Not having your pipes on a chest could be an advantage though. You'll just need to blow them by mouth. Make up a hose to attach to the toes (just one hose will do, as you'll be sampling them one at a time). Stand back some distance as you blow so the microphone won't pick up your own body's noises. That can't be worse than the sounds of a blower though!

You might actually find that a simpler VPO program such as jOrgan would be an easier way to incorporate your own sampled pipes. Or, in Hauptwerk, just copy your own recordings into the file folder that holds the wave files for the stop you want to replace with your own samples. (Make a backup of the original wave files first!) Before you can do that though you have to do whatever Hauptwerk producers do to mark the loop points, releases, etc.

The only thing I've done even remotely like this was to swap two stops within the same organ. I used a small sample set (dry acoustics, so the file system is much simpler than some) in which there was a Trompete on the Great and a Krummhorn on the Swell. I wanted the two stops reversed, so I simply copied the files from one folder to the other and vice versa. It surprised me when it worked perfectly. I even found in the definition file where the stop tabs were named, and changed the names on the tabs to suit my new arrangement.

[Kontra Bombarde 64]

Thanks for the feedback. Perhaps I should have explained my project in more detail in the get-go. I am actually a high schooler (probably the only high schooler who is interested in organs around where I am at), and I am actually doing this project as a mastery project for school, to participate in a gallery where all in my school can attend. One of the many reasons for this project is so that I can teach more people in my age group about the pipe organ. It should be explained here that in the choir room of my school has a set of decorative (but functioning) wood organ pipes. My idea is to sample the wood pipes in the room and turn it into a very basic sample set for the students to play during the gallery. The reason I want to do the choir room pipes, is because I think that it would be more memorable as an introduction to the pipe organ for people to play a sample set of pipes that they see regularly then some far off organ in the Netherlands (although I probably will have the Green Positive sample set available upon request).
As far as the equipment and encoding, I do have experience modifying sample sets and I actually modified a copy of the Example Custom Organ 1 to extend my Rodgers 790C for a special service celebrating Independence Day. In case anybody is wondering, the sample set basically constituted six or seven different 32 reeds, a 64 reed and the chamades from the Rotterdam Demo and Frisach in one stop. Yes I know that all of this is probably frowned upon, however I note this because I am wondering if the techniques I learned for that project will work for my project.
As far as the pipe with the missing toe, that is an extra pipe from the same set that the choir teacher gave me that I want to include in the sample.

[Larason2]

None of what you're thinking of doing is frowned upon! There's nothing in the sample set agreements saying you can't do what you've done.

I think you should be able to pull this off. You can mouth blow the pipes, but I don't think you're going to get a very good result. It's hard to keep blowing an even pressure for as long as you want for a pipe, and you'll find the bigger the pipe, the harder it is. Worth a try though I guess.

First thing is to visit a local music store and see what microphones they recommend, and get in touch with MDA and get signed up as a sample set developer so you have the tools. You should be able to take care of the rest once you have the recordings. (We can help you if you need it).

It shouldn't be too hard to build a small wind chest with a manual bellows to wind the pipes if you find mouth blown is not up to snuff, or you can't manage the biggest pipes. We can help walk you through that.

[Kontra Bombarde 64]

Thanks. First of all, could you direct me to those pipe making tutorials that you mentioned? Also, making a small windchest sounds like my best option. Could I get figures on cost, materials and instructions? Thank you so much!!

[Larason2]

Try watching this video series. Something along these lines is probably your best bet:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=SmLvAhvrzJI

It's hard to estimate the cost, because the needs of every project are so different, and you may have a lot of materials already. You'll need the basic woodworking tools shown in the series, and to buy lumber from a local lumber seller. The pneumatic leather is best to buy from Columbia organ leathers, I'd get a full skin of the medium for the bellows, and at least half a skin of valve for the valves. The CPL, tan is usually the way to go (looks like the website is currently down).

[aeolian pat]

Perhaps you might go to a nearby church and sample some pipes in situ. The time used and material you will need to purchase to make those pipes sound and then to record them is considerable .I'm guessing that the wood pipes are flutes and that they may need a good amount of air. You will not be able to blow the amount needed in a steady stream for any length of time to produce and record a uniform sound.

If you wish to build a wind chest the best candidate for you would be a direct electric chest. It can be assembled from plywood and Elmer's glue and screws. Simple hole drilling and some DE valves which can be had on line, (often on E-bay or other sites like Face Book) will give you control. You might get a local builder to supply a few valves for the duration of the project. To key the magnets you could use toggle light switches. In this case door bell buttons would not be robust enough to switch the heavy DC current needed. You might be able to power the small chest with a few auto batteries. A vacuum cleaner exhaust could be used to supply the wind. (probably little too much "WIND", so you will have to divert some away from the chest>)

How many notes you wish to play will be determined by the number of pipes you have available in different octaves and how you will resample them.. You will probably use one pipe for several adjacent tones

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7R5dpjfvhCs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-y7cSJrXWY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JfswdvEzHro This one shows a DE chest, ah yes, nothing like sheet metal screws in wood!

Nothing is impossible! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fANWsqxY67c

Regards
Pat

[Kontra Bombarde 64]

Unfortunately the windchest idea is out of the budget. Is there a way to supply the wind I need easier? I could be wrong, but mouth-blowing a couple of the pipes makes me think that they are bourdons. So I guess my question is what amount of wind do I need, and how would I get it to the pipes, with little or no extra noise. I may not have a huge budget, but I would like to make this as good as possible. Thanks for all the help!

[Coenraads]

As a physics teacher I would bring a bourdon pipe (about 3 feet long) to class when teaching about resonant air columns. The students were then instructed to wind the pipe by sweeping a large garbage bag through the air to fill it and then wrap the end of the bag around the foot of the pipe. Then by squeezing the bag, the pipe would sound for four or five seconds. This is simple and above all, noiseless. I called it a "bag pipe."

To elaborate on this you might build a small box with an airline permanently connected to the bag. Then install a one-way valve in the box running to a vacuum cleaner which can fill the bag as needed. Then shut off the vacuum cleaner and squeeze the bag while making your recording. On the top of the box drill a one inch hole on which the pipe can sit. You can then make make a lazy susan out of round piece of plastic with various sized holes to accommodate various pipe openings, screw it to the top of the box so that it can be rotated to position the various holes over the one inch hole in the top of the box. In this way you can accommodate the various pipes. You might also consider putting a valve under under the hole in the top, spring loaded, which can be opened and closed via a small dowel sticking out the top of the box. This would give you better control over the attack of the pipe.

Finally you need to monitor the air pressure. So grab a piece of clear flexible tubing, bend it in the shape of a U, mount it to a board, connect one end to an opening in the box and partially fill it with water. Then whoever is squeezing the bag can attempt to keep a steady pressure. Or you might even experiment by putting various weights on the bag. Three inches of water column difference should do it. Have fun experimenting!
John

[Kontra Bombarde 64]

Thanks for the feedback. I think that the bag method might just work for me. However the lazy susan idea wont because the pipes are bolted together. I will upload photos of the pipes.

[Kontra Bombarde 64]

Broken Pipes:

[aeolian pat]

Not broken the feet are just missing. They are slip fit into the hole. Probably lost. Looks like a hohlflute or melodia and another, what might be, a stopped flute.

[Kontra Bombarde 64]

Other pipes

[Larason2]

Just use something to attach the bag like a hose clamp. The pressure meter doesn't have to be fancy, a three way connector and some hose will work if you have enough clamps. The best hose are those vacuum hoses that won't collapse. Garden hose isn't good because it collapses, and the diameter is too narrow.

[Kontra Bombarde 64]

What size of bag would work best?