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    Medium-sized Allen ID?

    Hi everyone,

    Came across this. I could arrange transportation from a few states away ok. So, I'm wondering what model this one is. Has alterable voices, two expression pedals (might be a crescendo pedal for one), lots of stops.

    Is it AGO?

    I wish the master list had pictures added. Organ Blue Book offhand doesn't seem to list a lot of Allen models with pictures.

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    Could someone please shed some light on what the model/specs are?


    Thank you!
    Conn: 465 Deluxe Caprice w/pair of 144 pipe speakers
    Kimball: R-80 Broadway, S-20 Valencia III
    Western Cottage Organ Co. Reed Organ
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    P22 piano/10 keyboards/synths; 10 accordions (3 working); Ntv Am. Flute/PAC112V guitar/etc

    #2
    It's one of the early MOS organs. It has AGO pedals. The ebay ad has enough detail photos that you can read the stoplist.

    Comment


    • Max the Icie Owner
      Max the Icie Owner commented
      Editing a comment
      Thanks. By specs I meant polyphony if known, weight, that sort of thing. Not the stoplist. Thank you for the info.

    #3
    Originally posted by Max the Icie Owner View Post
    Came across this. I could arrange transportation from a few states away ok. So, I'm wondering what model this one is. Has alterable voices, two expression pedals (might be a crescendo pedal for one), lots of stops.
    My guess is that it might be an MOS-2 Model 225C. However, the Alterables being listed as Swell I & II, and Great I & II, lead me to believe it's an earlier MOS-1 model. The fact it doesn't have Celeste Tuning also makes me think it's an earlier MOS-1 model.

    The right pedal is definitely a Crescendo pedal. The left pedal is an expression pedal which affects the entire organ.

    Originally posted by Max the Icie Owner View Post
    Is it AGO?
    Yes, it is an AGO console, even though it has a lower profile than a traditional console would.

    Originally posted by Max the Icie Owner View Post
    I wish the master list had pictures added. Organ Blue Book offhand doesn't seem to list a lot of Allen models with pictures.
    I certainly agree with that sentiment. At one point, I thought about creating a page with all that information on it, coupled with pictures, but don't have the bandwidth or server to do it. One day, maybe.

    Originally posted by Max the Icie Owner View Post
    Could someone please shed some light on what the model/specs are?
    Ditto what Toodles said. The *raigsList post also has photos giving pictorial information. Exactly what did you mean by "specs?" Did you mean dimensions, power, disposition/registration, etc.?

    Michael
    Way too many organs to list, but I do have 5 Allens:
    • MOS-2 Model 505-B / ADC-4300-DK / ADC-5400 / ADC-6000 (Symphony) / ADC-8000DKC
    • Lowrey Heritage (DSO-1)
    • 9 Pump Organs, 1 Pipe Organ & 4 Pianos

    Comment


      #4
      Thank you myorgan. In case you didn't see it, I listed what I meant by specs in a comment on Toodles' post. But, by specs I meant polyphony if known, weight, approximate dimensions, that sort of thing.
      Conn: 465 Deluxe Caprice w/pair of 144 pipe speakers
      Kimball: R-80 Broadway, S-20 Valencia III
      Western Cottage Organ Co. Reed Organ
      ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
      P22 piano/10 keyboards/synths; 10 accordions (3 working); Ntv Am. Flute/PAC112V guitar/etc

      Comment


      • myorgan
        myorgan commented
        Editing a comment
        Max,

        Thank you. I believe we were cross-posting at the same time. Looks like John has the final word, though. He's always correct!

        Michael

      • Max the Icie Owner
        Max the Icie Owner commented
        Editing a comment
        Looks good to me.

      • jbird604
        jbird604 commented
        Editing a comment
        You are too kind, Michael! Glad to share a bit of 44 years accumulated facts, which might otherwise be useless to the world! Actually, after I posted I realized that this could be a 300-C instead of a 301-C, but the differences would be trivial.

      #5
      It's a 301-C, a fairly early MOS-1 organ. "Top of the line" in the single-computer series, so it was loaded with all the available goodies in the early MOS lineup. As you can see, it has genuine moving-tab capture (though it's the earlier type, the so-called Sequential action, or "clickity-clack," because of the sound it makes as the tabs fall in sequence rather than simultaneously on a piston press). All pistons are of course settable, with only one memory level though.

      It also has the Card Reader, toe studs, the analog celeste generator (thus the presence of a true celeste stop on each manual, and no need for the "celeste tuning" feature on larger doubled MOS organs). And a crescendo pedal in addition to the single expression pedal. (Divided expression was not generally a feature on MOS organs until you got way up in the line.)

      In other words, a very nice example of the typical MOS organ that small to medium churches bought. They don't sound just great, but surprisingly realistic on individual stops at least. The "polyphony" of Allen MOS organs was a well-documented thing -- while there is no actual limit to the number of stops that can be turned on at once, there is a hard limit of 12 keys being down at once, which makes sense, as you only have 10 fingers and two feet! Few people ever become aware of this limitation.

      Not a bad choice at all. MOS organs are certainly among the most stable and sturdy organs ever built. Allen still supports these models fully with parts and tech support, though parts can be pricey.
      John
      ----------
      Church: Allen MDS-45 with Allen MIDI-DIVISION-II expander
      Home: Allen Renaissance R-230 with expanded four-channel audio and MIDI-DIVISION-II
      Shop: Bunch of organs in varying conditions, some good, some not...
      Half of an incredible two-man organ service team -- servicing all the major digitals in Arkansas churches
      https://www.facebook.com/pages/Birds...97551893588434

      Comment


      • Max the Icie Owner
        Max the Icie Owner commented
        Editing a comment
        Really? That takes it out of consideration I think. Wouldn't be able to play both hands on the great with pedals for example.

      • samibe
        samibe commented
        Editing a comment
        If you don't mind a project, the MOS era organs are not too difficult to midify and convert into a VPO. They are well built. That would also give you a chance to get rid of the sequential capture system.

      • Max the Icie Owner
        Max the Icie Owner commented
        Editing a comment
        Talked to someone who had the B-case model at one point. Said it wasn't noticeable. It did occur to me that with that large of a stop list I might not need couplers much anyways.

      #6
      Sounds nice. Thank you!! Any idea of the ballpark weight?
      Conn: 465 Deluxe Caprice w/pair of 144 pipe speakers
      Kimball: R-80 Broadway, S-20 Valencia III
      Western Cottage Organ Co. Reed Organ
      ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
      P22 piano/10 keyboards/synths; 10 accordions (3 working); Ntv Am. Flute/PAC112V guitar/etc

      Comment


      #7
      The detailed info on MOS models, such as weight and dimensions, seems to have disappeared from the Allen tech site. I would guess that the weight of the console alone, without the pedals or bench, is between 300 and 350 pounds. The width of this console style is about 56" at the widest point, and the depth at the upper arms is about 30" or so. Fits though most any door, but they are heavy and cumbersome to move!

      Fully AGO pedals and keyboards, AGO compliant in the layout of the stops and other controls too. I see no mention of speakers up there, but this model has two audio channels, so it requires a pair of good full-range speakers, such as HC-12's. The original speakers would have been some older models though, possibly the 16-1 for the Main channel and a 32A/B set for the flute/pedal channel.

      John
      ----------
      Church: Allen MDS-45 with Allen MIDI-DIVISION-II expander
      Home: Allen Renaissance R-230 with expanded four-channel audio and MIDI-DIVISION-II
      Shop: Bunch of organs in varying conditions, some good, some not...
      Half of an incredible two-man organ service team -- servicing all the major digitals in Arkansas churches
      https://www.facebook.com/pages/Birds...97551893588434

      Comment


      • Max the Icie Owner
        Max the Icie Owner commented
        Editing a comment
        I've asked the seller about speakers. There are some that are wall-mounted mentioned in the listings.

      #8
      I've emailed Allen asking about specifics. Hopefully I will hear back.


      Wonder about his price. In your experience, generally, if something has a starting bid as well as a make offer, do the sellers accept an offer of around the starting price (no bidders)?
      Conn: 465 Deluxe Caprice w/pair of 144 pipe speakers
      Kimball: R-80 Broadway, S-20 Valencia III
      Western Cottage Organ Co. Reed Organ
      ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
      P22 piano/10 keyboards/synths; 10 accordions (3 working); Ntv Am. Flute/PAC112V guitar/etc

      Comment


        #9
        Asking prices for organs that old are of course all over the map on ebay. Many are very unrealistic. This one's starting bid of $595 is probably about all I'd pay for one like that, as old as it is, and given the veneer damage shown in the photos. Also, the fact that speakers are wall-mounted and you're on your own getting them down means a lot of extra work is involved. Could involve setting up scaffolding or bringing in a very costly lift. Shipping cost could well be more than the purchase price using typical shipping services. If they really would ship it anywhere in the US for $500 that would be a bargain, but you surely wouldn't get any speakers with it at that price, and they might not actually do that if you live very far away.

        The wall-mounted speakers could be any of several models. Could even be gyros, which are huge and heavy. Possibly not even worth the trouble of getting them down. I'd probably pass on the speakers and just look around for some used HC-12's.

        The upside is that it is an Allen, and it is digital, and it is said to be in working order. The veneer damage is not that bad, and may not be a deal-breaker for you if the price is right.

        To be honest, we still take in a MOS organ now and then, and sometimes manage to sell one for a lot more money than that, though our prices include delivery and setup and sometimes a warranty. And also to be honest, we get MOS organs free for the taking quite often too. So I'm generally not inclined to invest anything in one except the cost of getting it moved to the shop. Even then it can be a risky investment from a business point of view. But they do make perfectly decent starter organs or home practice organs.
        John
        ----------
        Church: Allen MDS-45 with Allen MIDI-DIVISION-II expander
        Home: Allen Renaissance R-230 with expanded four-channel audio and MIDI-DIVISION-II
        Shop: Bunch of organs in varying conditions, some good, some not...
        Half of an incredible two-man organ service team -- servicing all the major digitals in Arkansas churches
        https://www.facebook.com/pages/Birds...97551893588434

        Comment


        • Max the Icie Owner
          Max the Icie Owner commented
          Editing a comment
          He is going to get the speakers down himself. He will tell me their model tomorrow. There are two of them, and he says they are really easy to get down so he's going to do it. Sounds like they got the organ from a dealer (refurbished maybe) not too many years ago (he thinks it was new then). Apparently there will be help if needed for loading too. I just have to figure out what the timetable is for picking up if I buy it. I can't go myself, but we know people who are going out that way sometimes and so they need to know how soon it would be.

        #10
        If the owner is taking down the speakers and if help is provided to load, that sure sweetens the deal! Of course it was not new "not too many years ago" -- this was built in the very early 70's, so pushing 50 years old now!

        If you can get this home with no more than a $1000 investment, including moving it, you'll have a bargain, and a perfectly decent practice organ. Far better than any of the others you have seen and posted about on the forum. This is a REAL church organ by the TOP builder in the world, other than a handful of very expensive boutique organ builders.

        Only downside is that it's so old and therefore primitive, as digital organs go, and won't sound at all like today's digitals with their glorious ambiance systems and all the attention in their design to details like chiff and other attack/decay effects, airiness of the sound, tuning offsets among the various stops, etc. But you should enjoy it. Some people find that adding a good reverb system greatly enhances an old MOS organ like this. Numerous threads here have been devoted to doing that, with the specific items you need and how to hook it all up.

        Happy shopping and good luck!
        John
        ----------
        Church: Allen MDS-45 with Allen MIDI-DIVISION-II expander
        Home: Allen Renaissance R-230 with expanded four-channel audio and MIDI-DIVISION-II
        Shop: Bunch of organs in varying conditions, some good, some not...
        Half of an incredible two-man organ service team -- servicing all the major digitals in Arkansas churches
        https://www.facebook.com/pages/Birds...97551893588434

        Comment


          #11
          OT
          I should clarify: The polyphony is still 12 notes, it's just that if you play a note on the great it uses two notes (one on the great and one on the swell). So, you can only play 6 notes on the great before you use up the polyphony. You could still play 12 notes between the swell and the pedals. Also, using both the Sw to Pd and Gt to Pd would mean that each pedal uses three notes. In most cases it's not an issue. For example, using all three couplers (S2G, S2P, G2P) and playing a typical hymn on the great and pedal divisions would only use 9 notes (3 for the pedal line (B) and 6 for the three manual lines (SAT)). Even if you hit a wrong note, you would be at or below the the polyphony limit. The issue is if you play a piece that has large chords (6+ notes on the manuals and 1 or 2 on the pedals) and then try to use the couplers. IIRC the Tocatta on Amazing Grace ends with an 8-note chord on the manuals and a 3-note chord in the pedals (11-notes). In that case, if you use any couplers, some of the notes in the chords will drop out.
          Sam
          Home: Allen ADC-4500 Church: Allen MDS-5
          Files: Allen Tone Card (TC) Database, TC Info, TC Converter, TC Mixer, ADC TC SF2, and MOS TC SF2, ADC TC Cad/Rvt, MOS TC Cad/Rvt, Organ Database, Music Library, etc. PM for unlinked files.

          Comment


          • myorgan
            myorgan commented
            Editing a comment
            Sam,

            Are you sure about that? I don't remember ever running into the limit when playing one of these organs back in the '70s and '80s. Large chords were used, as well as using it for classical repertoire. I regularly used S>G as well as both Pedal couplers.

            The thread with the coupler discussion has me confused still. I've never run into any of the limits discussed, and I don't think I'm a novice.

            Michael

          • samibe
            samibe commented
            Editing a comment
            You're right, I don't know about that. It is that way on my mom's MOS-2 (282) which I had assumed was typical for single computer MOS organs. It was also discussed last year in this thread: https://organforum.com/forums/forum/...5961-polyphony
            It looks like the thread is missing a couple of posts, though.

          #12
          To quote Allen service literature, "couplers do not consume time slots." Coupling swell to great on a MOS organ does not reduce the number of keys that can be down. Still 12 total. That's because most coupling on MOS organs is a type Allen called "synthetic" coupling. This means essentially that when you couple the swell to the great, the swell stops are "copied" to the great without actually triggering the swell keying circuits.

          The only time coupling reduces the key-down limit is when the so-called "natural" coupling method is used. This was reserved on Allen MOS organs for the "celeste effect" on certain models, specifically on the choir division of the 900 series, where the choir manual is the only one that doesn't have doubling. This would reduce the key-down limit on that keyboard only to just six keys when the celeste effect was drawn. The effect was limited to the choir manual, so you could still play another 12 keys on the other divisions at the same time. This was an OPTIONAL feature on some of the small MOS models too, with a "sharp tuning" tab on the great and a special tab just for natural-coupling the swell to the great. Using that feature did indeed cut the limit to six keys, but users knew about it and would only use that feature for special effects.

          Also, a few models had "natural" coupling on the manual to pedal couplers so the tremolo and/or percussion could be coupled to the pedal if needed. This was tolerable, since the pedals are usually played one or two notes at a time only.

          The only horrible offenders in this matter were the wretched MDC models, where the celeste effect on the upper keyboard would quickly rob the entire organ of key slots, as did the carillon on the lower. But owners quickly learn not to use those items very much!

          Later Allens, such as ADC and MDS and current, use rather different keying and coupling systems. While the 12-key limit may be in fact identified on certain models, it never drops below 12, even with celestes or with any of the couplers in use. On those models it is simply a function of the way key-downs are detected.
          John
          ----------
          Church: Allen MDS-45 with Allen MIDI-DIVISION-II expander
          Home: Allen Renaissance R-230 with expanded four-channel audio and MIDI-DIVISION-II
          Shop: Bunch of organs in varying conditions, some good, some not...
          Half of an incredible two-man organ service team -- servicing all the major digitals in Arkansas churches
          https://www.facebook.com/pages/Birds...97551893588434

          Comment


          #13
          Just a small clarification- in 1972, Allen changed the small MOS-1 organs to have natural couplers for swell to pedal and great to pedal. (Before that, IIRC the swell to pedal was synthetic.) The reason was not only to let percussion and tremolo couple down to pedal (with natural couplers), but also since all pedal stops went through the "flute" audio, whatever was coupled to pedal with the original synthetic couplers would go through the flute audio system, which was considered not to have the correct frequency response for strings and reeds- this was the old 16 and 32 open-back speakers. It might not have mattered with the HC-10s which came along slightly later.
          The only problem was: put on swell to pedal coupler, great to pedal coupler, a few swell, great and pedal stops; play a 4-note chord on the pedals... there were no more 'slots' available for anything played on the manuals!
          I've learned to be very stingy when using manual-to-pedal couplers...
          R, Bill

          Comment


          #14
          Got a clarification from Allen itself this morning. Both right. The 301 uses synthetic couplers for the swell to great, and some had synthetic and some natural. You can tell by whether or not the tremolo works on the pedals if on the great or swell.

          "The Swell to Great coupler is a synthetic coupler and does not use up the 12 available keying time slots on 301 MOS organs.





          The two manual to pedal couplers on early MOS organs were Synthetic, the later models used natural couplers.





          You can tell if it is Natural or Synthetic with this info. The tremolo function will couple only with natural couplers."


          So that's good to know. Sadly, I'm having problems finding someone to pick it up. The people I know who go out that way this time of year have either just come back or aren't going out for a long time. Was quoted $4000 from one place, $1900 from another, and even $9000 from Fedex. For a $500 organ. Gas alone if we made the trip would be around $900 (2036 miles or so one way). We'll see.
          Conn: 465 Deluxe Caprice w/pair of 144 pipe speakers
          Kimball: R-80 Broadway, S-20 Valencia III
          Western Cottage Organ Co. Reed Organ
          ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
          P22 piano/10 keyboards/synths; 10 accordions (3 working); Ntv Am. Flute/PAC112V guitar/etc

          Comment


          • beel m
            beel m commented
            Editing a comment
            $4000? $9000?? <gasp>

          • Max the Icie Owner
            Max the Icie Owner commented
            Editing a comment
            Yes, somehow. $3,953.00 not including taxes was from Plycon (just rounded to $4000). $9000 from Fedex. From Sun City AZ to Northern MN.

          #15
          It's very often the case that it costs more to have an organ brought in than I paid for it. It's not terribly uncommon these days for me to get a MOS organ free for the hauling, whether working or not. But I may wind up paying the mover hundreds of dollars to get it to the shop.

          In fact, it is sometimes the cost of getting one of our used/refurb organs delivered and set in place that drives the overall selling price. We may not have more than a few hundred dollars invested in the refurbishing, but we have to recover what it cost to get it brought in, along with the cost of having it delivered to its new home, as well as the hours of labor that may go into getting it all wired up, tested, voiced. That's before there's any profit in the sale or anything put aside for a possible warranty call.

          That's why I figured out years ago that there's no money to be made in selling used organs for peanuts. We simply can't afford to fool with anything we can't expect to sell for at least about $4000, and even at that price for an old MOS organ, it pays expenses but there's not much profit.

          We do sometimes let someone have an organ for a lot less money. I've sold a few for $2500, even a few for $1000 or less. But these are strictly cash and carry, no delivery, no service, no warranty. That can be a good deal for somebody who has to get an organ at a rock bottom price. At least if we let it pass through the shop the buyer knows it has been thoroughly checked out and should be functional.

          The sweet spot in this business is the $10,000 - $15,000 refurbished large 3m MOS or ADC. At that price point I have enough profit to keep the shop doors open a few more months, and the buyer gets an organ comparable in size and sound to a $100K - $150K new one. Win-win. Buyers looking to spend more than that should be talking to the new organ dealers.

          Possibly our best-sounding installation of all times was a refurbished 1982 MOS-2 model 1105 that went into a local church four or five years ago at a cost to them of around $12,000, best I recall. Doubled speakers, a sub channel playing through an enormous Rodgers P32 cabinet, an en chamade channel connected to a wonderful Klipsch LaScala cabinet. It sounds like a million dollars.
          John
          ----------
          Church: Allen MDS-45 with Allen MIDI-DIVISION-II expander
          Home: Allen Renaissance R-230 with expanded four-channel audio and MIDI-DIVISION-II
          Shop: Bunch of organs in varying conditions, some good, some not...
          Half of an incredible two-man organ service team -- servicing all the major digitals in Arkansas churches
          https://www.facebook.com/pages/Birds...97551893588434

          Comment

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