3 Rare Custom Larry Phelps Allen Organs For Sale

[nullogik]

I think some of these have been mentioned in the past(?) but I thought I would mention them again together because I have found a third one! They were rare organs to begin with being highly customised and therefore expensive and so to have three used ones on the market at the same time is pretty unusual. I thought it would be worth drawing them together in one thread:

Allen Organ Studios of NY have a 2 manual, 28 stop Classic I with 7 channels for just under $7k:



https://www.allenorganny.com/pre-owned

Church Organ Service Texas have two (prices unknown):

3 manual custom ADC with 15 channels:



Stoplist images:





3 manual custom MDS with 17 channels:



Stoplist images:




https://www.churchorganservice.com/used-allen-organs

[Organkeys Jones]

The two in Texas have been listed for a long time (2 years or more?). The NY Classic I would have 21 speaking stops. I count 27 DK's, might be one more on Swell which is why they list it as 28 stops. Great sounding organ though. I have an MDS Classic 4-channel and it is wonderful - even with just 21 stops. I hope to expand it to the full 7 channels.

There have been comments on the Forum about the MDS in Texas and its "dirty" keyboards - but that is their natural wood color.

[nullogik]

Yes, you are right about the Texas ones. I suppose these are quite tough to sell as they are so highly customized. These organs tend to have an interesting selection of stops so you have to find someone who shares the same passion and taste (a bit like highly customized cars being often hard to sell). I can see the finish on some of these organs might put someone off like the not-dirty "dirty" looking keyboards or the reversed sharps and naturals. IIRC, the price of the Texas ones were quite high considering the age of the organs which doesn't help.

[michaelhoddy]

On the Classic I, the couplers and ancillaries are also included in that knob count. There are 21 speaking stops.

[John Vanderlee]

I just visited the one in NY last week. A real pretty instrument! Their website also lists a 3100, that one I helped find a buyer for. Picking it up Friday.
John

[Philip Powell]

I think they did a good job with incorporating the black keyboards.

[GrandHarmonicsXII]

I'm not sure about the MDS, but they told me that the price for the ADC was $40K installed.

[myorgan]

I'd have to have some questions answered before I'd shell out that much for any of those organs. I notice on the 3-manual, every division has an 8' Trompette Harmonique. The 4' Prestant is in two divisions, a 2' Doublette is in at least two divisions, and an 8' Bourdon is also in at least 2 divisions. I wonder if they are accessing the same stop, or if they are discreet stops. If they are all individual stops, I'd be cautious about coupling all of them together.

Even the Baroque Classic I organ is missing a 1-1/3' stop often found in a Baroque organ. I suppose a 1-3/5' could substitute in a pinch, but there's nothing like the real thing.

With each of these organs, I get the feeling either a church had an organist whose wishes needed to be indulged, or a home organist had an organ built to his/her requirements and when the homeowner couldn't play any more, there were less resale options because of the customizatons.

Each of the organs listed has a fairly unique niche which makes them difficult to sell on the secondary market. I might be interested in one for the chamber symphony concerts we do, but for the price, there's a fairly low return–being used once or twice per year.

Michael

[otispit]

Can anyone make out that innermost bottom Swell stop on that little Classic. The other specs are vintage Phelps. I imagine those Solo trumpets do not couple so they can play anywhere against anything, particularly the full swell w/ reeds to Great---Gillian did need to play the Cook Fanfare you know!!!! The lack of a Cornet on the Classic is a bit odd, even for Phelps, as is the lack of a celeste sound. I wonder if that mystery stop says 'Schwebung' for celeste tuning??

[myorgan]

The bottom-most photo does have Schwebung listed as the stopname.

Michael

[michaelhoddy]

No Celeste, Schwebung or otherwise, on this one. I feel like I've seen a Celeste on some of the other Classic I's though. That bottom knob is a "Zymbelstern."

Because the Classics were essentially one-offs with one stop per board, I would imagine there was some variation between them depending on the tastes of the buyer. The "Gallery Trumpet" and the 16' Dulzian in the Great (which I imagine shares with the Pedal) are also unique to this one.

There is a Sesquialtera II on the Swell on this one to pick up the Cornet in the German manner. The "Swell" here is more like a Positiv than anything.

[otispit]

Just so I know...how did you see that stop...I have super high rez mac setup, but even with corrections, could not make it out....trick??? Share??? And the fact that there is no 8' on the stop, I think it is just the ADC celeste tuning switch.....that frankly, I LOVE!!!!! Pipe organs...eat your heart out!!! And Prestant=Octave, Doublette=SuperOctave in French....no unification here.

[michaelhoddy]

Celeste Tuning- the TT-4s can do this differently depending on how full the cage is and how many FG boards are loaded. I have seen them with no celeste tuning, and just an FG board dedicated to the celeste pitch table so that the "Celeste" stop is always a celeste. I have also played one that I believe did have a Celeste Tuning knob, but it pulled just the Celestes off straight pitch, rather than a whole bunch of stops in that division, as would be the case with regular ADC organs using TG-3 boards. One again, possible because of one stop per board in the TT-4 and the ability to be more generous with pitch references.

[myorgan]

Just so I know...how did you see that stop...I have super high rez mac setup, but even with corrections, could not make it out....trick???

It depends on your operating system, but if you open the photo in a new window (so you don't lose the thread), just keep clicking on the photo until it won't get any larger. Then, you can double click (with 2 fingers) in the middle of the photo to make it even larger. After that, you use the two fingers and drag them away from each other, which will Zoom the photo even more. From that, you can make out the Z of the Zimbelstern.

It's quite a process, but it can be made larger if necessary but yes, it is difficult to read.

Michael

[otispit]

Does anyone have the actual stoplist for that Classic. Looks like no reed on SW (our Casavant has a very narrow scaled Pos Sesquialtera that when drawn with chorus does sound like a reed---horrors!!! See below). Also borrow of Dulzian from GT to Ped. Ahhhh, it DOES have a Cornet..there's my Phelpsy I love. Totally logical stoplist then. He did build a lot of organs w/o celestes....so..... Sorta silly here tho! Obviously not built for a Catholic church.

[myorgan]

That sounds like a lot of work for a Cornet.

Michael

[otispit]

Myorg....have done all that, and used Photoshop, Gimp, Photozoom Pro, Corel Aftershot and others....still can't make out the letters. Need the PD's license sharpening software.......or a printed stoplist. It is a 'minimalist' spec at any rate! Sorta hard to justify that spec for a church just to get a bit more realistic sound. Wonder if it was a college or home organ.

[michaelhoddy]

I'd say it's more than a "bit more" realistic. It's more like massively more realistic than the ADC organs of the time, especially in ensemble and in the enveloping of the individual stops, and especially in 1989, this would have been the last stop in realism before a pipe organ, without a lot of competition.

Of course the Classic I also costed about as much as a loaded ADC 5300 that was twice the stop list in size. But compared with a pipe organ... The real question becomes whether you want a handful of great individual stops, or a much more diverse large number of decent to good stops, to which the right answer depends on the eye of the beholder.

To this day, these organs sound absolutely remarkable, and like the real thing. You can hear the technology limitations up close and in some individual stops, but in use, they diminish significantly. For a practice instrument or a Lutheran church where you don't need a lot of romantic stops but instead simple, effective vertical choruses, this would do quite well.

[michaelhoddy]

Here's a link (if it works) to another Classic I, which you will see has a more balanced stop list, even if still small.

https://organforum.com/forums/forum/...-new-one/page2

[otispit]

Thanks for the audio link of JBird's demo....that Classic does sound great! You certainly don't have to convince me they are truly that good, as I feel even our two big ADCs at times are amazing when all those channels get going. It really shows when you simply couple the manuals--I've never heard a Rodgers have the same effect. The articulations are what is remarkable on that Classic....total Phelps voicing, and you can hear that in the full chorus....great to know. Good room, multiple point sources and lack of intermodulation distortion--even the 8 bit samples build a superior ensemble that newer organs seem to lack.

[SchnarrHorn]

Thanks, too, for the link. I've read the entire thread and listened to the recording (thanks for making and posting it, JBird!!). Those organs are amazing. Back when I was in the market, I recall playing one that the dealer had on the floor and it was amazing. (It was the stock Classic model with built in speakers.) What sounded even more amazing was stepping back a bit (maybe about 6' to 10') and letting the salesman demo it. The realism was breathtaking. And this was with limited, in-console speakers only. I wanted more, however, mainly for practicing purposes, so didn't go that route.

Regarding the Johnson Ferry organ that used the same technology, wasn't that the first electronic Diane Bish featured on her show? Rumor I heard at the time was that it made a very favorable impression on her, realizing that electronic instruments can be quite realistic and musical if the resources are put into it.

George

[Larason2]

Even with the modest stoplist, the one in NY seems like a deal. With all those foot pistons and swell pedals, it would make a great Midi console if midi could be added while keeping the original stops. It’s true it doesn’t have the resources built in for a lot of romantic literature, but with Midi they could be added, and this instrument would do quite well for a lot of other literature. I’ve always been a fan of the reverse natural keys if they are done well.

As for the two consoles in Texas, they also appear very nice, but unfortunately the price puts them beyond most budgets. They would also make great Midi consoles with the right modifications. The stoplist for those has a bit more leeway for romantic pieces, but still overall neobaroque stop design. Hopefully either the price comes down or someone is found with deep pockets and a love of the neobaroque.

[toodles]

As I recall, the "standard" Classic I did have a reed in each division--Dulzian 8, Trompete 8, and Posaune 16. I think the Trompete was duplexed to the Pedal. Also had a Schwebung, but, sorry, Michael, no 1-1/3. Original price was about $30,000 in Chicago when it was new. The dealer had to pay for it's Michigan Avenue showroom so they sold at top dollar.

As a side note, a 1-1/3 stop was not often found in Allen's smaller organs. On the Rodgers analog organs, 1-1/3 was often found in the Great on their small models, swapped for 2-2/3 as you got to their mid-size, and then 1-1/3 was added back to the larger models. I've always liked 1-1/3 and 1 ft stops--they combine with an 8 ft flute for such a delicate clear sound.

[michaelhoddy]

Yes, I might be missing some exceptions, but I can't remember a 2-manual Allen I've played that has a 1-1/3'. That is almost always on the Choir manual in Allens as part of the "positiv" ensemble. I guess that's what the card reader or expander is for.

[myorgan]

I wonder if the dealers realize that by listing the organ's price as high as they do, potential customers won't even enquire, assuming the dealer would never reach their price range (i.e. if a person were purchasing "as is" and leaving the State)? It's really too bad a "real" price could be broken down between price, installation, and options, but I do understand the dealers are selling their services as well. So those organs will invariably rest outside any price I can afford.

Meanwhile, someone suggested adding MIDI to a Classic I organ, and I wonder if the MIDI voices might pale in comparison with the Classic I voices–depending on the MIDI module used.

Michael

[AllenAnalog]

I have a 1 1/3' Nineteenth ADC voice card. The description says, "To build chorus." They are still listed as available in the Allen Organ online store.