Allen R-350 console without TG and amps on eBay

[AllenAnalog]

A partially-gutted Allen R-350 console was posted for sale on eBay today with an opening bid of $1,000 by frequent Allen organ seller "1459steve" in Springfiled, MO. It has no tone generation cage or amps but still has other electronic assemblies. Not sure if the control panels in the two drawers are still there or not. It certainly would make a nice VPO console.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/276773380096

You do have to wonder what happened when such a relatively new large instrument ends up like this.

Edit to add: After looking at the console interior photos again I found myself wondering if the TG chassis and amps were in a remote cabinet? I don't see any obvious structural supports for either. Is this organ just missing its remote cabinet? Perhaps one of our retired Allen dealers can comment on this since I am not at all familiar with how the Renaissance chassis were mounted in the console.

[myorgan]

Ewwwww...blonde!🤮

You do have to wonder what happened when such a relatively new large instrument ends up like this.

I also wonder (other than the finish) what would possess someone to desecrate a working organ. This Steve guy must be some sort of a dealer, as I see he gets several organs for resale, however, if I'm recalling correctly, some of them have been "gutted" and are available as a console only for a VPO.

Perhaps he's obtaining these organs from insurance companies? Springfield, MO is in the middle of "Tornado Alley," and I'm wondering if organs from affected churches are being "totaled" as part of an insurance settlement? Just one possibility. I'm thinking perhaps jbird604 may have a better sense of how often that happens, as he once had a shop near that area (relatively speaking).

That area is also in the middle of what is often referred to as the "Bible Belt," and many of those churches are moving to more "contemporary" offerings. That could also be a factor in organs being made available in that geographical area.

Michael

[you795a]

Yes, there would be a remote amp rack that belongs to that organ.

[jbird604]

I heard about this situation second hand, but I believe Steve got that console out of a closed down church building. He wasn't aware that the tone generator and amps were in a remote cabinet, and thought he was getting a working organ, missing only its speakers.

By the time he discovered that he was missing some vital parts, the building had been either demolished or renovated and the organ components had been thrown away.

He's a good person who buys and fixes up mostly Allen organs, sometimes messes up like this, but has a good heart and tries to sell good used organs to churches and individuals who can't buy new ones. We used to travel to Springfield occasionally to fix something for him. I even took an organ off his hands once when it turned out to need more costly repairs than he had expected when he pucked it up.

[myorgan]

John,

Thank you for weighing in, and for your assurance of Steve's motives and intentions. He sounds like a great person to do business with!

Michael

[Organkeys Jones]

I am wondering why that R-350 had a remote rack. The first two Renaissance organs I sold as an Allen rep were R-370 and R-450. Both were bigger than the R-350. Both had all TG system boards and amps in the console.

That console is beautiful. The single MIDI port on the MN4 looks like it needs an adapter for regular MIDI IN, OUT, & THRU jacks. If MIDI can be made functional (I think it can), then it would be an incredible VPO controller. Note On/Note Off, Expression, and Pistons should all send & receive MIDI data. I would assume the capture system is all in the console. The GC-MN4 board shown is the brains - so that is an important component to still be present.

The backside of one drawer is pictured and seems intact. I don't know if that is the Console Controller or an Expander. Hopefully it has the CC. An Expander or Ensemble can easily be added (if MIDI works), but it would be difficult to find a replacement CC. Two drawers are shown in the console photo.

I agree with jbird John that Steve is a good person to deal with. He had asked me about moving components of another of his organs into this console, but I informed him there was a compatibility issue. Even if connected via MIDI, his other organ only had a portion of the resources the R-350 originally had.

[michaelhoddy]

It looks like there's an MDS Expander-II in the right drawer, which was typical in many installations (both of my Ren organs have had them). The MIDI cable is there, and you can see the RCA cables leading out from the drawer slide on the back of that location, and down to the floor of the console, where they connect to line drivers that jump onto the DB29-style connector at the back center that would have hooked up to the cable to the remote rack, where they would have been mixed back into the appropriate audio channels.

Given that this was not gutted, but rather purpose-built with a remote rack, I would expect that the console would work just fine in all other regards- MIDI and capture, which would have been self-contained to the console, including power supplies.

[Organkeys Jones]

Michael - I agree the Expander (or MIDI Division) is probably in the right drawer. But long ago I quit saying "Allen always ..." because sometimes it is different. Such as this having a remote REN cage!

I now see that the MIDI jack on the MN board probably does not line up with the label, at least not in that photo angle. So it probably is a regular MIDI jack - but is it just OUT to the Expander drawer? There looks like a MIDI plug (tied off, not connected) just to the right of the backside of the pictured drawer.

[michaelhoddy]

That's interesting- I was not aware of those early generation Renaissance organs having the TG in a remote cabinet as an option. I wonder why? Perhaps the run to the speakers was long, or there was an upgraded speaker complement from stock that required more amps? I can see how, instead of having TG in the console and a remote amp rack, as was the case in many larger ADC organs, how it would be easier and more effective from a wiring standpoint to put the TG with the amps and just run a single multiplex cable and a relay cable to the rack rather than a whole bundle of coax.

For reference, many if not most of the 3-manual Renaissance organs in the first generation had both TG and amps in the console, and it all fits. All of the ones I have encountered are set up this way, including my own R-370 which packs 4 3-channel ADC amps and a full Ren cage inside an Allen drawknob D console, which I believe is the same console shell as the 350.

[Organkeys Jones]

If I recall, those are L consoles, not D.

[circa1949]

I'm glad someone will get such a nice console, but color me skeptical about a dealer with any experience of Allen organs just oopsy-daisy overlooking a remote rack. What's coming out the back cover hole should have made that clear in under a second. Huge bundle of wires, versus one! Maybe he actually relied on a subcontractor for the removal, or something.
Also seems possible lightning killed the TG, but not the console, but this Ebay seller, or whoever he's working with, don't want people to think the console might have hidden damage, too.

[AllenAnalog]

The seller is not an Allen dealer, just someone who buys and sells organs, many of which are Allen brand. So he would not have the knowledge and training of an authorized Allen organ dealer.

The back cable hole in the console is covered over with a perforated metal plate and there is a rather ragged hole cut in the floor of the console where cables were run out of the console. The connection between the console and the remote rack would not have been a "huge bundle of wires" but just a few small cables - digital (or perhaps even optical) plus perhaps some control lines. I'm sure you795a could describe what they would have been.

A close look at the photos shows a multi-pin D-sub connector under the swell pedal cage with no cable attached. I'm guessing this is part of the connection to the remote rack.

The new owner of the building may have disconnected the organ before it was offered for sale. Given all of the comments from knowledgeable members on here about how unusual it would have been for an R-350 to have a remote TG/amp rack, if Steve did not take the back off of the organ before he removed it from the building he would have had no idea that it was missing vital parts. That might have only been discovered when he got the console home, plugged it in and got error messages on the console controller.

The seller does state in the listing that the stops work, whatever that means. So it is not necessarily a dead console. Given jbird604's comments about the integrity of the seller, I seriously doubt he is trying to hide any hidden damage.

The is just another incredibly sad situation where ignorance on the part of the people who acquired a church building resulted in making a fine instrument virtually worthless.

[circa1949]

Well, so sorry to be a wet blanket, but he clearly (in bold no less!) says in the listing "Drawknobs work", which to most people would imply, moving stop capture action. Yet no less an authority than you795a says they cannot work with a missing cage. And, in fact, neither can the keys...in terms of transmitting useful data about which are being pressed. ;-) It's basically bricked without the cage! So I think my concern is justified.

[AllenAnalog]

No matter what works and doesn't, with an opening bid of price $1,000 it means that the buyer is getting one heck of a raw console and can part out the orphaned electronics on eBay. There is one bid as of today so someone has an idea in mind.

[you795a]

it's possible that the church wanted the organ to be able to be moved from one location to a different location as still be played. Hence the amp rack would be located in a permanent place and the organ could be disconnected and reconnected at a different place. There are four MIDI ports on the MN-4, MIDI IN, MIDI THRU, MIDI OUT, MIDI OUT2, however the MN-4 will show a fault and will not boot up because there is no cage.

[you795a]

That is correct. The MIDI will not function because of the MN fault. The capture will not function either. Regarding using a REN2 cage, it may or may not function depending on the version stopmap that is in the organ. The MN-4 was used for the moving stops and the MN-5 was for the Lumitech.

[myorgan]

Organkeys Jones, Only some? Hopefully, you know I was just kidding. Snow day off today, so feeling a bit punchy.

The Forum is good in that the reader can glean what (s)he can from the comments that are relevant to their particular situation. Sometimes the comments are a bit fragmented (from different users–different issues), but generally most comments are usable. The most difficult situation for me is when I post a question and no one responds. Then I'm up a creek!

Michael

[you795a]

I should specify something. The MIDI connections would not be on the MN-4 board itself. They would be on a separate board usually located behind the keyboards.

[AllenAnalog]

The seller has added photos of the drawers - a console controller and an MDS Division II.

A sticker on the side of the console says "Property of FUMC" which usually translates to First United Methodist Church. So perhaps that is a clue as to where this organ was located.

[stbees]

it's possible that the church wanted the organ to be able to be moved from one location to a different location as still be played. Hence the amp rack would be located in a permanent place and the organ could be disconnected and reconnected at a different place. There are four MIDI ports on the MN-4, MIDI IN, MIDI THRU, MIDI OUT, MIDI OUT2, however the MN-4 will show a fault and will not boot up because there is no cage.

So, what would it take to make the MIDI work?
BTW, you'd be surprised with what gets thrown out as churches yank out organs to make room for "praise bands." Seems the piece most-often missing in action is the bench.

[you795a]

A tone generator cage, the power cables for the cage and possibly the cables that attach to the cage from the MN board.

[circa1949]

The MN-1 in my organs says it's missing 'cage clock' if one isn't attached. Given the overall system architecture was still very 1980s-ish until the end of the MDS era, I think a clever PIC hacker could figure out how to supply cage clock to one of those. It probably isn't very complicated. (and in fact, Greenwood said that all stop and key control in the ADC era was just 2, 256 slot TDM lines. Years down the road when I'm done practicing and am a quality organist, I plan to put the oscilloscope on my spare organ and figure that out just for kicks.)

OTOH one assumes things changed radically in the Renaissance era and those MN-4, MN-5 boards expect a more complex handshake.

[jbird604]

I seem to recall that a Renaissance console with remote TG WILL function without a cage IF a data cable is connected between the "out to cage" and "in from cage" jacks on the MN4. This completes the data loop that must be unbroken for the console equipment to function.

I may be wrong, but i don't think the MN4 requires a clock signal from the TG cage, but my servicing of Renaissance organs was never extensive. If I get time I'll try to get my former business partner to find the definitive answer on the Allen tech site.

[circa1949]

Interesting! TBH, I never tried to use the console after the ominous missing cage clock message. Maybe it would work!
I'm glad whoever purchases this console will be able to use it as a controller. That being said wouldn't it have been devious of Allen to make it some kind of Easter egg. Like, you get 48 hours without the cage, and *then* it stops working. It just so happens that nobody has discovered it yet. 🤣

I'm curious is the Renaissance era data cable something sensible like a Cat5, or is it the oddball thing in MDS/ADC organs?

[circa1949]

Ahhh, I found the answer in an old post from Mr. Hoddy.
"This cage takes inputs from all stopboard and keyboard assemblies, and interfaces with the Ren II cage via (2) RS-232-type 9-pin D-Sub connectors, one "send" and the other "receive." Whether this is actual RS232, I wouldn't know."

[jbird604]

I found this info in some old Allen Renaissance service literature:

‐-------------------
For test purposes, if the Console Controller displays an incorrect message or the indicator lights on the MN board and/or cage do not function correctly, the problem can easily be isolated to the MN board or cage by disconnecting the network cables from the cage and joining them together (one is female and the other is male). If the lights on the MN board then function correctly, the fault is in the cage. However, if the Console Controller™ continues to display an incorrect message and/or the indicator lights on the MN board do not function correctly with the cage isolated from the network, the MN board or power supply is defective and must be replaced.
----------------

So, it appears that the MN board can indeed function without the cage attached, as long as the data loop is closed. In the Renaissance system at least. This probably doesn't apply to MDS.

I believe the cables used are old fashioned D-sub serial cables.

[circa1949]

Yep, I'd earlier stumbled on that answer while reviewing this classic thread from the past. Man, 2011. When we all felt a lot younger!

https://organforum.com/forums/forum/...strument/page4

Surely they use ethernet now? RS-232 could have made sense in the 1990s because the controller chips were readily available. Maybe they are still used in industrial controls.

[michaelhoddy]

I would not be surprised if MDS did require cage clock to sync the MN board. A lot of the architecture shares a lineage with ADC, and the ADC definitely requires clock from the primary cage to run the USCM/USCP, as I discovered when trying to resurrect the TT-4 the first time I got it home.

Were there even any MDS remote cage organs? I have not heard of or seen one, but surely they exist?

[circa1949]

MichaelH - 20 years ago an Allen Organ tech who used to be active at the Yahoo group (but I'm guessing, based on his age, is no longer with us) told me that his favorite Allen install was still (this being over 5 years into the Renaissance era) a custom 3 cage MDS organ. He didn't mention whether they were remote or not.

That being said, it "feels" as though everything in the MDS era was notionally 'downsizing' from the ADC era: 3 manual 'MADC type' or 'sandwich type' organs being wayyyy more common than similarly mini-fied 3 manual ADC organs. (The ADC-720 and maybe another? point is there were scads and scads of MDS-40S and MDS-41S sold - that's why we see them on the used market so often.) I suspect multi-cage MDS organs with remote cages were less common than the same format of ADC instruments. (I can also imagine this might be partly because of the contrast between the charging economy of the mid 1980s and the recessionary one of the early 90s)

But given that the backplane worked the same way, it was surely just as technically possible to run the cages and racks remotely for MDS organs. And arguably more important, given the potentially higher S/N ratio of the 16 bit W* cards. (although Allen sort of shoots themselves in the foot on that due to the inclusion of the TG10! On standard models at least, it's entirely possible it was omitted from custom instruments)

Someone remind me, the anniversary ADC-8350 was 3 cage, and they managed to fit all 3 in the console for the standard configuration right?

[John Vanderlee]

Here is what I got directly from the seller:
"There are some cables in bottom of organ that have been disconnected but I don’t know what they connected to- I know the cage amps and speakers were all in loft. When the church moved the console, they thought it was complete except for speakers. They were wrong. Now all that has disappeared 4 years ago"

[circa1949]

We live in a world where it never makes sense to bet against people's cluelessness. Surely even the average resident organist would have a peripheral awareness of there being a big chunk of the digital organ, somewhere else? Organists with pipe organs, at least, are generally aware of where the pipes are! However, I would wonder if this was a case of one congregation buying the church from another, and thus a hidden away tone/amp cabinet getting lost in the proverbial shuffle. We'll probably never know! Even if it's outdated tech, it's a shame to think of a couple working Renaissance cages ending up in a landfill.

[myorgan]

Odd how that could happen. Allen is always careful to brand their equipment in an installation, and one would be hard pressed to see an Allen device and not know it was part of an Allen Organ installation.

Michael

[michaelhoddy]

Do we have any idea who bought this thing? $1,000 is a steal assuming that the MN will run on its own clock loop.

I've been using the R-370 for Hauptwerk, and it's a marvelous Hauptwerk controller that syncs up very easily (except for the general cancel).

[myorgan]

If we hold on for a while, it might show up again once the person buying it realizes it may be unusable for their purposes.

Michael

[Schrolarty]

Okay, Okay. I'll stop lurking about this one. I won that auction. I was going to wait until I have it in my possession before posting about it here, but since you're getting curious...

I'm working with Steve to sort out the transportation. I'm not in a hurry since I have other projects, but once I have it I am planning to use the full-MIDI, that should still be functional, to control Hauptwerk.

michaelhoddy - I have been following your recent R-370 Hauptwerk posts with interest since I hope to soon have a similar setup on this R-350.

[circa1949]

Congrats! Do keep us updated!

[michaelhoddy]

Oh, that's great! Congratulations! I do hope the MN loop works as intended and you don't have any complexities running it without the Allen TG. If so, it will make a WONDERFUL Hauptwerk controller. Do keep us posted!

[myorgan]

That puts a different light on things. Congratulations on giving into your OAS, yet again! I'll be following your progress with great interest.

Michael