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  • Both hands on one manual



    Hey all,</P>


    I've been very slowly working my way through the Flor Peeters beginning organ book. In the two part manual playing section there is a piece that appears to require playing both hands on the upper manual for about 4 measures. How is this kind of thing typically noted? Or is it player preference? There is no note saying "both hands upper manual." I have done it both ways and both hands on the upper works much better. I don't have the book with me but it is the seventh piece in the two part manual playing section. There are rests in the bass clef in the phrase that I am questioning. </P>

  • #2
    Re: Both hands on one manual



    It's all done on one manual. CLUES:</P>


    At the beginning of the piece, he gives the registration - [Manual] II {Princ. 8' 4' 2' Mixt.</P>


    He then states, at the beginning of the music - "II" - indicating that you start on Manual II. There is no further indication of a "I" or "III", which would tell you to add orswitch to a second manual.</P>


    Iwonder if your past experience has led you to believe that the notes in the bass clef are to be played by the left hand on the lower keyboard, and the notes of the treble clef are to be played by the right hand on the upper keyboard. I know that I was taught that way, on the church's little spinet. It was an eye-opener to realize that other hand arrangements were possible. [My, we've come a long way!]</P>


    Good luck with your studies.The Peeters is a good solid beginning,and you will never regret learning how to play better.</P>

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Both hands on one manual



      I understood playing both hands on one manual was needed when you needed two handed playing with one sound. If your manuals are set up with different registrations, then that large two handed chord etc. would be performed on one manual for all notes to have the same sound. No?</p>

      Geoelectro (guessing here... :o)
      </p>

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Both hands on one manual



        All good answers,!! </p>

        To reinforce, organ music is properly notated by individual manual, and they are numbered or named as: I, II, III etc as already mentioned,. or Great, Swell, Choir, Recit.. (recitative) etc. The problem I found in teaching many self-taught organists who wanted to delve into "serious" organ, was the tendency mentioned; that is, to think of the left hand as lower and the right as upper...It must be overcome as even the opposite, though rare, occurs... Of course, an inability to read simple music on the piano is also a problem. It will come out if you work, and as mentioned, in most published things it is well marked which manual....; also observe the registration suggestions, but be prepared to try your own as well.</p>

        John (ellll)
        </p>

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Both hands on one manual



          [quote user="ellll"]also observe the registration suggestions, but be prepared to try your own as well.</P>


          John (ellll)[/quote]</P>


          This is a very good point. Use the registration suggestions to help learn basic registration principles, and to teach you what kinds of sounds are possible, but don't lock yourself into them. And try them out on different organs.Over time, you will develop a mental catalogue of registration options. [To tell the truth, I started out by writing out the registrations in a notebook.] This is especially valuable when you get to an organ that doesn't have the stops necessary to do EXACTLY what a composer or school/style of playing might normally require. Your ear will then be able to lead you to either a close approximation or an effective alternative. Registration is an art in itself.</P>

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          • #6
            Re: Both hands on one manual



            Thanks you for the advice. I confess I did not know what the roman numerals meant and I have always thought that left hand was bass clef and right was treble clef. I guess it just fit since I started on a spinet. Fortunatley my organ has some of thefractional stops and it sounds pretty good with the Leslie on celeste. </P>


            I've played this msuic on both organs and the Gulbransen is far better than the Hammond 820.</P>

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Both hands on one manual



              Hello all,</P>


              I'm still working through Flor Peeters. I have followed the recommendations for playing on one manual. Sometimes this works fine but for some registrations it dosen't. The low tones are to loud and overpowers the upper. In those situations I just use both manuals and adjust my great volume control accordingly. </P>


              My next question is about tempo. There dosen't appear to be any indications of what the tempo should be on these pieces. Is there a general rule for this when there is no indication? </P>


              The ninth piece in the two part manual playing sections asks for a 16' stop. Am I correct in using my left hand on the swell and my right on the great? My great has no 16' stops. there is also a reed recommended but I don't have one of those either on the great. My organ also lacks couplers so I'm SOL again. I guess this where creative registration comes into play. </P>


              At some future time I'd like to add a pedal line to these pieces. Any ideas?</P>


              </P>

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Both hands on one manual



                My apologies,</P>


                Upon closer inspection, it was the tenth piece in Flor PeetersI has questions about instead of the ninth piece which is coming along wonderfully. Some explaination in another thread about registrations also answered some of my other questions. It seened awkward at first to play left hand on the swell and right on the great.Itsgetting easier now the more I do it. </P>

                Comment


                • #9
                  in regards to registration: registration can be one of the most difficult things to master, and I'm not entirely sure that any of us actually do. To be honest, I never thought of the bass clef as being for the lower manual and the treble for an upper, and I began by playing everything on one manual (usually the great), with a chorus registration of Principal 8 and 4 or something like that. Then I had to learn how to register solo and accompaniments using two manuals. Here are some general rules of thumb, which can also be found in the Gleason Method for organ, from which I learned many of my principles:

                  Chorus registrations:

                  Plein Jeu: Gt. Principal 8,4,2; Flute 8,4,2; Mixtures and Cymbales; Pos to Gt coupler; Pos. Flute 8,4,2; Mixtures and Cymbales
                  Ped. TROMPETTE 8 (I list reed stops in all capitals to make the distinction); For a better chorus balance for playing hymns you can use Principal and Flute 16, 8, and 4. If you don't have a 16 Principal on your organ, you can substitute something else, or leave it out all together, as long as you have a 16 Flue stop included.

                  Grand Jeu: Rec. (Swell) Cornet V (can be an individual stop or you can make one by using flute 8,4,2, and Nazard 2 2/3, and Tierce 1 3/5); TROMPETTE 8, CLAIRON 4 Ped. TROMPETTE 8 (You can also use the above suggestions for balancing the chorus).

                  Grand Plein Jeu (also called Grand Choeur): Gt. Principal 8,4,2; Flute 8,4,2; Mixtures and Cymbales; TROMPETTE 8, CLAIRON 4; Pos. to Gt coupler; Pos. Flute 8,4,2; Mixtures and Cymbales; CROMORNE 8; Ped. TROMPETTE 8, CLAIRON 4 (can use above suggestion like before as well, makes for some exciting registrations!)

                  Solo and Accompaniment registrations:

                  Cromorne en Taille: (solo in the tenor) Gt. Principal 8, Flute 8; Pos. Principal 4, CROMORNE 8; Ped. Balance with manuals (generally principals and flutes 16 and 8)

                  Tierce en Taille: Rec. (Swell) Flute 8,4,2, Principal 4, Nazard 2 2/3, Tierce 1 3/5; Gt. Principal 8, Flute 8; Ped. Balance with manuals

                  One of my favs:

                  Cromorne en Dessus: (solo in the soprano) Gt. Principal 8, Flute 8; Pos. Principal 4, CROMORNE 8; Ped. Balance with manuals

                  At least this will give you a place to start. As was said above, play both hands on the same manual unless the music specifies otherwise. The general rule for choosing registrations is let the music guide your decision. For example, fugues and other contrapuntal music are usually played with both hands on the same manual, unless otherwise stated. Bach's trios are the exception, they are always played two separate manuals, plus pedal. If while looking at the music, you notice that one line is a solo, then you can use a solo/accompaniment registration for it. The key is practice your registrations when you practice your music. It's actually pretty fun to do: sit at an organ and pull stops until you find something you like! Remember: no matter which registration you use, the music still has to sound good. Use your instincts as a musician: even amateur musicians (I have a degree in Music Education, so again I specify just to make the distinction) know what sounds good and what does not (my 8 year old students can identify when music sounds pretty, when it is dissonant, consonant, etc). Bottom line is that it must always sound good, so use your ears!
                  Fishers, IN

                  At School Church: Wicks III/40
                  At Church Where I Am Director: Hammond BV with Leslie 122
                  Summer Practice Organ: Rodgers III/47

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Mark, it's Higgy and I have a bunch of Hammond sheet music that was in the bench that is from the factory and has all the parts for both bass pedals and both manuals and exercises for them. Here is a sample but Wes, andyg, indianajo and I are going to post them once they are scanned. These are from like 1960 and very delicate but I I have the hammond factory give me a few min and I will upload you an example of how the upper, lower manuals and pedals are all anotated and written in sheet music.

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                    • #11
                      Click image for larger version

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                      Mark, Ellll is 100% right. Here is an example of what proper sheet music for these organs looks like. This is from the Hammond factory and notice it shows the upper and lower manuals with diff cleff sig as well as bass pedals. I'm only a newbie because this is my first Hammond. I'm a guitar player and Audio/Visual engineer with 20 yrs experience working on the road.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by ellll View Post
                        All good answers,!! </p>

                        To reinforce, organ music is properly notated by individual manual, and they are numbered or named as: I, II, III etc as already mentioned,. or Great, Swell, Choir, Recit.. (recitative) etc. The problem I found in teaching many self-taught organists who wanted to delve into "serious" organ, was the tendency mentioned; that is, to think of the left hand as lower and the right as upper...It must be overcome as even the opposite, though rare, occurs... Of course, an inability to read simple music on the piano is also a problem. It will come out if you work, and as mentioned, in most published things it is well marked which manual....; also observe the registration suggestions, but be prepared to try your own as well.</p>

                        John (ellll)
                        </p>
                        John you are soooo right. I hope the sheet music I showed helps. Notice like you said it notes each manual as a seperate staff and has it's own key signature.Click image for larger version

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                        Notice I at least used a Chopin piece instead of some rock and roll stuff...lol
                        Last edited by ; 01-03-2013, 10:19 PM. Reason: humor

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                        • #13
                          Most music that is written for section changes have notation in the score. If the beginning registration isn't suited to the change there may be registration changes marked as well. (Why accomplished musicians prefer pistons -- but simple changes can be made easily on both drawbars and tabs by deleting something and then adding it back at the close of the passage) Most music with solo note in the treble is meant to be registered with a solo type registration on the swell. As noted for hymns and other music in which the entire piece is meant to be played on single manual the great is preferred -- because it is generally alot more comfortable.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            What's interesting in your example is that registration shows that the treble staff is to be played on the lower manual and the bass staff on the upper. (In Hammond registration notation the square indicates the lower and the circle indicates the upper manual.) Your example demonstrates that there is generally no connection between the staff and the manual that plays it.

                            Like piano music, the upper staff is usually played by the right hand and the lower is usually played by the left, but they can both be playing on the same manual as the staff itself does not indicate the manual on which the notes are to be played.
                            -Admin

                            Allen 965
                            Zuma Group Midi Keyboard Encoder
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                            Hauptwerk 4.2

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                            • #15
                              That's an unusual point that Admin makes. Often, these 'arranged for the Hammond' pieces are playable on spinets as well as consoles and if the intention was to play the left hand chords on the upper, then you can't do so on a spinet. Perhaps the music dates to before the introduction of the M, or perhaps they just didn't check! The 4-1 setting for the pedal drawbars certainly indicates a console registration and I'm guessing that the F# and D refer to the liturgical presets rather than the theatre ones!
                              It's not what you play. It's not how you play. It's the fact that you're playing that counts.

                              New website now live - www.andrew-gilbert.com

                              Current instruments: Roland Atelier AT900 Platinum Edition, Yamaha Genos, Yamaha PSR-S970, Kawai K1m
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